What would you like to know about building a shop?

[Bobby Slack]

I will take one picture so I can scare all of you ... you better be good My shop is a HUGISIMO mess

I am too embarrassed to post the pic.

[JCHunt]

Hello Vic

Thank you so much for offering your time and expertise to all of us. It means a lot.

I'm in the process of starting to build a 2.5 car detached garage with a small apartment above located in NYC area. I will be using the garage as a year round shop (yay!). I have been going round and round with heating/cooling options. I have read thru this entire thread and a few others in this forum. Since I'm building this shop from scratch, and my sister will be living upstairs, I want it done right. I wouldn't say cost is NO object but I'm a firm believer in paying for quality. With that being said, if this were your shop, what would you use? Spray foam? Mini-splits? Radiant floor? Thanks for your advice. JC

[Vic]

Hello Vic

Thank you so much for offering your time and expertise to all of us. It means a lot.

I'm in the process of starting to build a 2.5 car detached garage with a small apartment above located in NYC area. I will be using the garage as a year round shop (yay!). I have been going round and round with heating/cooling options. I have read thru this entire thread and a few others in this forum. Since I'm building this shop from scratch, and my sister will be living upstairs, I want it done right. I wouldn't say cost is NO object but I'm a firm believer in paying for quality. With that being said, if this were your shop, what would you use? Spray foam? Mini-splits? Radiant floor? Thanks for your advice. JC

JC,

 

If you air seal and insulate really well, radiant floor heat tends to be overkill.  You'll end up still having cold floors because it isn't usually on.  I prefer spray foam as it does your air sealing along with the insulation, but it is quite a bit more expensive.  My favorite "bang for the buck" insulation is cellulose.  I would encourage you to build at least to Energy Star standards.  Contact someone in your area for the available Builder Option Packages (BOPs).  Generally, a lot of the extra cost associated with using "advanced" building methods will be offset by a significantly lower cost heating option.  Consider using a 2x8 bottom and top plate and staggered 2x4 studs.  Done correctly, this will break your thermal coupling to the outside. I would spend time perusing this site: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/ .  It's written a little more in layman's terms.  If you have an understanding of general construction, I would also recommend digging into this site: http://www.buildingscience.com/index_html  Joe Lstibrek is generally thought to be the best authority on building science.  He's been at it a long time and comes at it from a very scientific POV.  Be sure to do "scheduled" plumbing.  That is, build and place your water usage to be a minimal run.  I'd also recommend looking at either a tankless water heater, if you have gas available.  If you do end up with longer water line runs, I recommend an on demand circulation pump.  DO NOT have a standard circulation pump that runs continuously.  They are extreme energy wastes.  I would recommend going with a ductless split system and cadets, if your electric rates aren't exorbitant.   If they are, you may be better off with a direct vent high efficiency gas HVAC unit.  You'll have to crunch the numbers on which is the better option for your area.  I would talk with a local utility for advice there.  Also, be sure to use an heat recovery ventilation system HRV/ERV, especially if you build as tight as you should.  

 

Good luck!!

[G S Haydon]

Because my day job is as an energy efficiency consultant for a public utility in the commercial, industrial and agriculture sectors and I have a pretty decent shop, I get asked a lot of questions. Some are about lighting, heating and cooling, and general construction. I also stay up on building science in the residential sector, as that is my other passion besides woodworking. I've been thinking of writing a blog post or several, but would like to know what you would like.

Please let me know your questions and I'll answer them to the best of my abilities. I have a lot of contacts in the field, too. So, if I don't know the question, I will track it down or let you know I just don't know.

Normally, I want to only blog about projects, but you have all given much to me and I would like to repay you by addressing the one area I have some expertise.

Vic

Well Done Vic. Great to see people wanting to help others. 

[JCHunt]

Thanks Vic. Lot to digest there. I'll check out the other web pages you recommended. I don't have natural gas but I'm trying to decide between everything electric or an electric/propane blend of utilities. When I started crunching the numbers for all electric I quickly ran out of power for the "shop" tools. I have a 100amp line split off my home for the garage. This is assuming I'm calculating power consumption properly! Lol. Thanks again. To be continued...

[Vic]

Yea, JC, you'll need a 30amp dedicated to a DHP. The tool situation is the DC plus your highest draw tool. I'm assuming its a one man shop. In my shop that's 20 - DC and 20 - tablesaw or jointer for my biggest one time draw. Oh!! And 20 amps circuit that my laptop and stereo are plugged into. That's 90 right there. I forgot lights, too! 100amps is pushing it.

[lelandschultz]

Vic,

I see that you said in an ealier post that radiant floor heating won't work well.  I am in the planning mode for a new house and of course shop.  I am looking at doing geo-thermal heating on all floors.  I live in south eastern WA.

Any other links to sites you would recommend would be great so I can pass them along to my builder.  Size of shop is approx 36 x 40 (and the wood will not be stored there).

Thanks for passing your information to the young generation (wood worker newbies..)

[Vic]

Leland, the caveat on the floor heat is specific to a well sealed, well insulated house.  People typically want hydronic floor heating to keep their feet warm.  If a house is properly sealed and insulated, the hydronic system will hardly run and therefore, the comfort of floor heat will not be realized. If your here in South East Washington, your best heating system, provided the home has an open layout is ductless heatpumps, with in wall cadet style heaters.  I you do go with a traditional whole house heating system, design the house so that the ductwork is inside the envelope and is properly sealed with mastic.  The ductwork can be tested for good sealing, as well as can the house.  What utility are you with?  I can probably give you a local contact.

[Just Piddlin']

Hey Vic, very generous of you to put this post out there. My question is about ventilating my shop, I have a 12'x20' barn style morgan building. it's all metal with wood framing and a plywood floor. I have a window a/c unit in it and want to insulate the walls and ceiling and finish with 7/16" OSB. Do i need to put any ventilation in here?

[Vic]

Hey Vic, very generous of you to put this post out there. My question is about ventilating my shop, I have a 12'x20' barn style morgan building. it's all metal with wood framing and a plywood floor. I have a window a/c unit in it and want to insulate the walls and ceiling and finish with 7/16" OSB. Do i need to put any ventilation in here?

If a building is assembled to the standards in advanced building methods, Energy Star and better, then you do need to start introducing mechanical ventilation.  In that case, ERV or HRVs are the way to go.  There are many variables that go into proper ventilation.  Like, how windy is your area.  How many windows/doors do you have.  In the case of a shop, if you use a roll up garage style door, you have quite a lot of ventilation already.  Too much in my opinion.  Since you want to use something other than sheetrock for your interior, the likelihood that you will achieve a tight envelope is not very good.  So, the long and short of it is that you probably have no need to introduce mechanical ventilation.  Definitely not with you using a window banger.  They allow quite a bit of passive air exchange and that is the biggest reason, beyond their less than adequate energy efficiency, that I don't recommend their use.  But, everything is a trade off in building.  Usually, that is between up front and long term costs.  Simple payback is never a good method to evaluate something in the building process, but return on investment is a sound method.  Good luck with the build and enjoy your new space!

[Just Piddlin']

Thanks for the quick and thorough response, perfect answer except that now I have more options to think about lol, there's always more options

[Vic]

Feel free to contact me directly if you want to have a conversation.  Most of the time, that is a much faster way of getting to solutions.

[lelandschultz]

Vic,

I am building in Badger Canyon area (Kennewick).  The initial thought was to do a Geo-thermal system for the whole house and shop (but looking into the floor heating).  My shop is going to be on the back side of my garage and share one side wall with the house and the other with a RV bay. 

I am thinking now not doing the floor heating but just use the home sytem with a zone just for the shop.  The approx size is 23w x 38L x 9 or 10H.

Did you do spay insulation in your shop?  Is so who did you have do it in our area?

Thanks for the great advice....

Leland

[Shannon1066]

Hi Vic,

I read somewhere that you put in 1/4" plywood for your shop floor and finished it with shellac.  I was wondering how you are liking that decision?  I'm thinking of putting dricore on my basement cement floor, followed by plywood on top because I do not like the look of OSB.  I would like to put down 1/4" on top of the dricore.  Do you have a post somewhere that details out how you laid out your floor?  What is under your plywood?  How is the shellac working out?

 

Shannon

[Vic]

Hey Shannon,

 

I'm on a crawlspace, so a little different.  I have a base of 5/8" exterior grade ply on the joists, 3/4" tongue and groove OSB glued and nailed to that with construction adhesive.  Then I screwed down 1/4" luan plywood to that.  I originally put down a oil based poly on the floor.  It took months and months for it to finish off gassing.  As I've scraped glue and other things off and, in the process, the finish, I've started just applying BullsEye shellac, which is about a 3lbs cut.  The luan is often used as a base for vinyl and has one side that is is really great shape (A grade).  It is screwed every 6 inches at the perimeter.  There are only six screws in the field.  It has worked out quite well.  I don't have a post about the actual flooring, though.  I could take more detailed shot of the screw pattern, if you'd like.

 

Let me know. 

 

Vic

[Shannon1066]

Thanks Vic.  I would like to take you up on the picture of the screw pattern.  I was planning on glue and screws but the guy who is helping me is trying to convince me that if I use liquid nails I do not need the screws.  I've never used liquid nails before.  I would like to have the screws in there as an added security but he thinks it is not necessary and will ruin the look.  

How many coats of the BullsEye shellac are you putting down?  I'm trying to find the balance between a sealed floor that I can wipe up glue, etc. and not being slippery with the sawdust.

 

Shannon

[jHop]

I know several guys in the home repair/maintenance business.  Most of them swear by Liquid Nails.  One swears at it.

 

I've seen some pieces after they've been removed that were held up by LNails.  In most instances, they grip and don't let go.  Some of the wood splintered and peeled off in layers, but only where the adhesive was.  And some of the pieces simply popped off, leaving behind adhesive lines and marks.

 

In my opinion, as I do not use the product, it is a decent adhesive to keep material in place, but it is not a permanent adhesive structure.  I would consider backing it up with a few screws, although probably not as many as you might need if you did not use the adhesive.  If you have any intentions of changing your mind later, however, I would not use it.  It is possible to clean up the mess from two pieces joined together by them, but it takes a lot of work.

 

But this is from observation, not experience.

[Vic]

I know several guys in the home repair/maintenance business.  Most of them swear by Liquid Nails.  One swears at it.

 

I've seen some pieces after they've been removed that were held up by LNails.  In most instances, they grip and don't let go.  Some of the wood splintered and peeled off in layers, but only where the adhesive was.  And some of the pieces simply popped off, leaving behind adhesive lines and marks.

 

In my opinion, as I do not use the product, it is a decent adhesive to keep material in place, but it is not a permanent adhesive structure.  I would consider backing it up with a few screws, although probably not as many as you might need if you did not use the adhesive.  If you have any intentions of changing your mind later, however, I would not use it.  It is possible to clean up the mess from two pieces joined together by them, but it takes a lot of work.

 

But this is from observation, not experience.

Yes, the OSB that was glued and screwed was Liquid Nails.  I used it on the top of the joists to cancel any squeaks, too.  But as jHop says, it's a very permanent bond in most cases.  Also, it off-gasses pretty bad, too.  My final course is only screwed on to allow me to move machines, ductwork, etc. much more easily.

[rodger.]

Hi Vic,

I read somewhere that you put in 1/4" plywood for your shop floor and finished it with shellac. I was wondering how you are liking that decision? I'm thinking of putting dricore on my basement cement floor, followed by plywood on top because I do not like the look of OSB. I would like to put down 1/4" on top of the dricore. Do you have a post somewhere that details out how you laid out your floor? What is under your plywood? How is the shellac working out?

Shannon

The dri core panels are quite expensive, and can be hard to level if you need a lot of them. Some people use a roll out product that is typically used along the outside of foundations. It looks the same as the bottom of a dri core panel, and is far cheaper. After you roll out what you need, place 3/4 tg ply on top and screw right through it all and into the concrete.

As a disclaimer, I have not tried this, but it has been recommended to me by two different, competent carpenters.

Ps - sorry if I should not have posted in this thread Vic!

[Vic]

The dri core panels are quite expensive, and can be hard to level if you need a lot of them. Some people use a roll out product that is typically used along the outside of foundations. It looks the same as the bottom of a dri core panel, and is far cheaper. After you roll out what you need, place 3/4 tg ply on top and screw right through it all and into the concrete.

As a disclaimer, I have not tried this, but it has been recommended to me by two different, competent carpenters.image.jpg

Ps - sorry if I should not have posted in this thread Vic!

Heh!  No worries.  Not my thread.  I just started it to answer what I could.  I certainly am not an expert, more a jack of all trades.  I can evaluate very well, as I have to do that in my job. 

[Vic]

Hi Vic - this is a bit off-topic but just something that has me curious.  In your region, what % of new houses would you say are incorporating some meaningful level of building science?  I live in the chicago area and I would say 90% (if not 99%) of new, single family residential construction uses conventional forced-air HVAC systems.  This would be in both custom houses and developer-led subdivisions.  Only in super high-end homes, where the owners are very environmental concerned, do you see this stuff.   Heat pumps, geothermal, splits, advancing framing, even spray foam, this stuff is all science fiction in my area.   Its still fiberglass bats, 16" on center, forced air HVAC, and water tanks in new construction.   You might see a split system or radiant heating as a supplement to the convention system (i.e. my third-floor bedroom is hot, i will add a split in addition to the legacy forced air system).  I tried to have a tankless water heater installed in one of my houses and the HVAC contractor cautioned me against it because "Our water mains in chicago are so cold and the tankless system can only raise the temperature X degrees.  You will never get water above 90-100 degrees in the winter.  Besides they are computer controlled and like all computers, they require a reboot every once in a while.  do you want your wife calling you at work once a month when the thing needs a reboot."   I new I'd be selling in 3 years anyhow so just went with a conventional water tank.    

 

Fine Homebuiding seems to be on a advertiser-led, nearly self-destructive crusade to get this stuff adopted (really, triple glazed windows that are $1000 per unit?) and This Old House has been pushing it for 30 years, yet here in my area nothing has really changed.    Are we just dinosaurs here? keep in mind our climate ranges from well below zero in winter to 100F+ in summer so any system must be able to deal with that.  Forced are might be an energy pig, but it works!

A lot of our region is much more forward thinking because we have mandates associated with our dam system.  Many contractors still employ antiquated methods, because that's what has "worked in the past".  Washington state has one of the more aggressive Energy Codes in the US, so we tend to build to higher specs.  But, the code backed off eliminated exterior duct work in the last iteration, much to my disappointment.  I see more advanced building methods in the residential sector than in commercial, but things are changing for the better.  Our 6th power plan has conservation (energy efficiency) as a huge resource and expects it to not only continue keeping our load growth flat, but to actually decrease our load growth going forward.