When have your planes "chattered"


G S Haydon

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just a small step forward for me here. I'm tuning up my vintage #4 and I have a couple of photos. One with a two piece chip breaker and one with a one piece. I'm far from an expert but the two piece seems a really good idea. I wonder why it never caught on, or am I missing something

 

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 Nice and flat for max contact with the frog

 

 

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Nice and bent, a lot less contact with the frog.

 

I'm looking forward to contrasting them in use.

 

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Interesting discussion. I'll add my opinions, though that's all they are, no decades and decades of experience to back me up.

 

No matter the make of the plane, if it's sharp, properly set and your skills are good you don't get chatter.

Many modern makers are quite capable of producing tools which simply don't do what they should, since they target low cost only. Drill bits which don't cut round holes, files which won't cut metal smoothly, planes which won't cut wood properly. They make holes, scrape metal, and chew wood.

Good/better/excellent sharpening, setting, and planing skills will certainly help, but ultimately if these exceed the capability of the tool, they won't help any more.

 

Is it too strong a comment to say "Nearly all planes will work equally well as one another as long as it is sharp, tuned and set right" (for instance anant vs clifton)

I think that is too strong a comment. Sharpness for example depends on two factors; what is being sharpened, and the skill of the sharpener. Your skills can eventually exceed the capabilities of some tools.

 

Also would it be fair to say "The main reason for buying premium planes is that they are already tuned and set right thus saving time. In addition the quality of the materials used and craftsmanship used in a premium plane make them more desirable rather than any huge performance gain"

A premium plane should help reduce the learning curve a little. You start with something that you can have confidence in. A modern premium plane should also have the advantage that it is 'next generation' - taking the good points from previous designs, and adding other improvements, which can also be due to the materials now available, that simply didn't exist before.

Rather than more desirable, I'd say more practical. I'd love to own a Ferrari, but any car with power steering, power brakes, anti-over/under steer, anti-skidding, etc., will improve my driving. When I get in my '73 Fiat 500, breaking requires forethought, I have to remember to 'double declutch' dropping down gears, and overtaking requires faith!

My limited driving skills can easily exceed the 500's capability, are on a par with a modern car, but are inferior to the capabilities of a Ferrari. Over a 5km distance there's little difference, over 1000km I'd be a wreck after driving the 500, still capable of walking with a modern car, sprightly but much poorer with the Ferrari.

 

And finally (sorry if this is getting boring) what items have you retro fitted (chip breaker, blade type stuff) and noticed a big step forward in performance if any.

Step forward, yes. Big, not altogether, no. I have Quangsheng blades and cap irons in my #7 and #5, and a Hock blade in my #4 smoother. I think improvements work on a logarithmic scale, getting a 10% improvement could cost almost as much as the previous 100% achieved. They do, however, require less work to become performant, even in my unskilled hands.

 

This is an interesting point for me as it clearly seems better to have more surface area contact. However, when a cheap standard chip breaker and blade are screwed together they bend (hope this is not just me). This is true of the stanley, faithful and record planes I have. This means the blade is not perfectly flat on the frog (held up to the light I could see daylight between frog & blade) and IME it has made no difference to performance (when working on joinery, fine smoothing and deep cuts).

Using just a new quality chip breaker with a thin blade makes the bending even worse, unless you use a two piece chip breaker. I had an old record stay set chip breaker (two piece) and as there is a joint in the breaker it does not bend the blade. This is the only combo that has given me a flat seating on the frog.

I'm not sure that this is the right direction. Full frogs are a sure indicator of the age of a vintage plane, and generally a sign of a better quality plane, but I'm not entirely convinced (I don't notice big differences, and I've swapped frogs between planes). If surface area contact was a big issue, apart from polishing the frog face, we'd need to polish the opposite flat side of the back of the blade (the side with the bevel on the end - front side?). Oh, and perhaps get rid of the lateral adjuster, which is slightly proud of the frog.

The lever cap puts pressure on the front of the blade, across it's width (via the cap iron), and in the centre, just behind the retaining screw. Even if the cap iron deflects the blade, the lever cap will correct this somewhat. But if you can see light between the blade and the frog, with the cap iron properly installed, then two things - you've got excellent eyesight, and you've got a problem!

I do hone the front underside of the lever cap and the 'hump' of the cap iron, so they seat as well as possible, but only once, during the fettling process.

 

Just a small step forward for me here. I'm tuning up my vintage #4 and I have a couple of photos. One with a two piece chip breaker and one with a one piece. I'm far from an expert but the two piece seems a really good idea. I wonder why it never caught on, or am I missing something

I have a Stay set, though actually it doesn't - stay set. I think the bottom section fell off about three times, and bounced off the bench onto the concrete floor twice before I gave up using it. It always lands on a front corner, much as bread always lands on the buttered side.

Again, I think the Stayset Records are slightly better made, but I'm too clumsy to use the two piece cap iron.

We had a sharpening and joinery weekend recently, so apart from my own, I got to see other vintage planes, plus a couple of new premium Anant's, a new Premiun Stanley, and a Lie Nielsen. Of the vintages I'd dearly have liked to steal the #5 1/2 full frog, which was in superb condition - but had a sharp eyed owner. The Anant's were (to me) surprisingly good after about 45 minutes of messing about. The Stanley - a low angle jack, had a mouth that wouldn't adjust to less than 1.5mm! The Lie Nielsen #4 was gorgeous, very fine depth adjuster with hardly any play.

The vintages took about 60 minutes to get going well, the Stanley we abandoned after 90 minutes - hope he gets his money back, the Lie Nielsen took about 3 minutes to get going.

John

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GS a really interesting thread. I have limited experience and only a small selection of planes; however I remember school hand planes being unusable because of chatter, I think now partly because I hadn't been shown how to use them properly and partly because they weren't set up well.

The few I used at woodwork classes 6 years ago made me realise what a sharp blade is (I had the plasters to prove it).

I inherited 2 Stanley planes definitely post war not sure of date, a 4 1/2 and a 5 1/2. I've used both with some degree of success. I've never got the 5 1/2 to cut end grain without chatter.

I bought my block plane; a LN 60 1/2 R and I have no regrets, it has worked out of the box, it's lovely to use and has no rust on it; a constant problem in the winter with the Stanley's. I have also recently bought a Veritas LA jack plane in the hope I will be able to cut end grain! NB the LN block plane does cut end grain, but not on a shooting board.

In short I think the more expensive planes can compensate to some degree for inexperience and save time. Maybe I should get an expert to set my 5 1/2 up it might then work on end grain! I also think the quality and the occasional design change can improve a tool, my immediate response with the LA jack was I like the lower centre of gravity, the aligning screws, the grip all of these things improve the ergonomics and must therefore lead to more consistent usage...I think there's a Chris Schwarz article where he recommends an LA jack if you can only afford 1 bench plane...given the choice of my 2 Stanley's or the Veritas i'll keep the Veritas :-)

Looking forward to seeing your conclusions.

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Hello Darren,

 

I have been very lucky indeed not to have problems with chatter. I would like to get the time to make it to a tool show where I could try some of the LN/Veritas planes out, I'm sure I would love them. As for my conclusions, don't treat them as any kind of gospel. I have really enjoyed getting my head around the bailey type plane I have been using with some ignorance now for 15 years. I'm quite excited by my budget "faithful" brand #4. I did give it a put down on a comment I left on a blog, got a feeling I'm gonna regret that.  

 

Hello John,

 

Thanks for the brilliant feedback! Since I started the thread I have been able to read up on what other woodworkers like and why and all the little idiosyncrasies everyone chooses to prepare their planes. I think P Sellers swears by his standard Chromium Vanadium blade stanley No4, Others swear by a new high quality blade in a vintage other straight to premium brands. I think they are all right because each combo works perfectly for the user. 

I know what you mean about the stay set cap iron. I took me a while to remember it was in two pieces. 

Also, you mentioned some premium ANANT planes. Got any more info on those?

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I made the bad mistake of trying a Faithfull - the Record 311 copy. I bought it out of shear desperation, I'd been hunting on ebay for over a year. I eventually managed to get it to work reasonably well, but still think I wasted my money. It cost half the going rate of a Record, but I've never had to put so much time into a plane before. I wrote about it in Italian - just read the pictures, they say everything.

 

The Anant was this one. We started just sharpening the blade and fettling the cap iron - both were quite thick. It started to work - ish. Had to clean the mouth and frog face and seating, using files and sandpaper to get things working well. Still, very good value for money. I call them 'premium' because this is not the infamous Anant I've heard or read about. I think they're a cheaper answer to the chinese challenge - Quangsheng (they're the 'Dick' planes on that page). Clearly the Germans didn't think about the English translation when they made that brand up. Actually the company was called 'Dick tools' until about a year ago - probably didn't sell much in the UK...

 

I think of it as a 'quick' solution. Here in Italy after paying postage from the UK, it works out about the price of a good vintage Stanley or Record. The #5 and #7 work out cheaper, but I haven't tried them. You have to do about the same amount of fettling though. Which of course is really the tipping point. If you know what you're doing, fettling is fine, though at that weekend course, most weren't happy to see me file their treasures - despite me telling them "Trust me I know what I'm doing"

 

John

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Thanks John,

 

Sweet vid ref  :D. That ANANT looks very good value. I would like to get my hands on one to see what it's like. I have a whole load of "carry on" puns about the D brand but I will spare us all from my poor sense of humor.

FWIW I have found the "faithful" brand mixed but on the whole good value. Please remember though my expectations might be lower than some. I'm going to take a photo of my day job tool chest tomorrow which will amuse for sure and perhaps put in perspective my expectations on tools.

Back to the faithful plane though, the number 4 I have does seem ok but does need a little work, I genuinely thick there is a decent beast there with just a little bit of charming. But who knows perhaps it will be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FM3Em7FIOc.

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I wonder if this is why some prefer a 30 degree grind over 25. Are some grind angles merely accounting for blade deflection?

On a bevel down it makes no difference what angle the bevel grind is as the actual cut angle is dictated by the frog. However on bevel up it may be the case but usually there is no chip breaker on a BU plane.

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As promised here is my day tool chest.

 

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Chisels are always struck with an estwing 20z claw hammer 

 

Saws are disposable hardpoint

 

I had forgot but I actually run a Clifton blade in my #4. Bought it many years ago when axminster used sell the blades.

 

I use these tools on joinery, carpentry or installation work. With a supporting cast of power tools. Now you can see why I wanted to build a tool chest for my private stash of tools.  :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've never had a chatter issue with cast iron planes.  A super sharp blade solves all sorts of problems.  The only plane I've ever had to chatter is a Primus smoother.  The blade is tensioned with a screw knob at the back that tensions a big spring.  It'll chatter fiercely if the blade even starts to need sharpening, and no amount of tightening that spring will stop it.  When it's sharp, it's a pleasure to use, but I usually reach for a 4 or 4-1/2 on a big project because the chattering comes all of a sudden.

 

I finally broke down and bought 12oz. and 30oz. Wood is Good mallets, and wish that I had long ago.  I've had some jobs where we use chisels all day, and I wish I had all the No.40 chisels back that succumbed to the hammer-not to mention no fatigue to wrists from the poly mallet heads.

 

As far as tool boxes, I really like the Stanley ones with the waterproof seals, and heavy duty snap locks.  I have 92 of them, in cubbies, well marked.  I can get to anything I want quickly, and no rust to anything.  If we need just a few for a small job, they go in the back of the truck with no worry if it rains, and we don't have to pull the trailer.  Lowes and Walmart sell the small one for 20 bucks, and Lowes sells the larger one for 30.  I just wish they made one long enough for handsaws.  They come with a Stanley or Bostitch label on them, but they are the same thing.

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