Stanley No 4 and 5 for $40 CAD


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It's just occurred to me, I have no idea how to put a camber on a blade. I don't have a grinding stone, nor do I have the cash right now to get one. I'm probably going to have to keep the blades straight until:

1) I have the cash for a grinder

or

2) I have the cash for a MkII with the camber roller on the back.

 

At some point I'm going to want to upgrade my honing jig anyway, so that will probably be the way to go anyway.

 

In the mean time, any suggestions for putting a camber on the blades?

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Kidney bean is the shape of the slot on the lever cap.   Andrew, they will work just fine. It's just surprising how much abrasive is used, how much mess is made. If you can spare the time and you en

Paste wax would be my choice. The oil can cause trouble if any gets into a spot where you miss cleaning later.

Yay! I finally got my No 5 working. I just cut a 7.5 thou shaving off a bit of old 2x4 as a test cut. I managed to get a slight camber on the blade by applying pressure to the corners of the blade as

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It's easy.

I camber my blades using finger pressure. Over simplifying here, but basically if you have even pressure across the blade you (should) get a 90 degree angle.

If you divide the blade into 5ths, you take let's say 5 strokes in the middle, 5 on the immediate left and right sides and 5 on the far left and right sides.

Hope this makes sense.

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I'm getting to the point where I'm considering how I'm going to sharpen beyond 2000 grit. I have access now to a flat piece of granite, and as previously discussed I'm not worried about the continual cost of sand paper. However I can't get sandpaper beyond 2000 grit.

 

Is that actually going to be a problem for my "new" hand planes?

 

Should I consider investing in a water stone - perhaps a dual sided 4000/8000 stone? My budget is incredibly limited.

 

I've been reading Lee Valley's guide to water stones, but I can't say I'm much wiser!

 

Aside from my planes, I have a three very cheap chisels which I bought a decade ago to do some DIY. (I'm looking at some Narex chisels which I've heard good things about)

 

This in mind, it seems like a Norton stone would be the right choice to balance cost versus durability.

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However I can't get sandpaper beyond 2000 grit.

Personally, I find that 2000 grit 3M automotive wet/dry paper from the local auto parts store brings my blades to a high shine. I finish with a few strokes on a leather strop glued to a backer board, and loaded with white polishing compound. This leaves a polish rivaling liquid mercury in appearance. I have difficulty believing that sharpening beyond that point is going to much more than tire my arms out. But then, I'm an ameture, so maybe the more experienced among us can prove me wrong.

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I don't particularly like the combination stones, having gone that route initially.   Unless you plan on investing in A2 blades any time soon, I would go with a 4000 King waterstone, and not worry about the 8000 polish.   The Nortons outperform the Kings on harder steels, but are over twice the cost - the King 4000 is only $27 at LV - and the Bester/Imanishis are better at that price point anyway.

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What didn't you like about them? Did they wear out too quickly? Or was it more the inconvenience of having a 2 sided stone?

 

The inconvenience of keeping both sides flat and debris-free initially, and I found the wear rate very uneven rather than too fast.  But what really made me go with singles was the pattern of work I developed - I still have yet to set up a dedicated sharpening bench, so when I get the stones etc. out, I almost always sharpen several blades/chisels.   I much prefer being able to step up through the 1000/4000/8000 grits without fussing with the stone each time.  A King 1000 and a King 4000 together are cheaper than the Norton 1000/4000 anyway.

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Following Bob Rozaieski's advice from the video, I've done some lapping on the No4's frog. I noticed there was some work that needed doing, especially on the edge where frog meets the mouth. The frog had warped slightly away the blade creating a gap between the blade and the edge of the frog. Given that this is the first point of contact between the blade and the frog, I'm assuming that's the most critical point. I still have a little more lapping to do as the right hand corner is still not quite flush.

 

Apologies for the terrible photo - my iPhone was refusing to focus properly:

post-6539-0-13310600-1394810346_thumb.jp

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I think you're doing very well. The toe and heel are usually rounded, so that they don't mar the work piece. I usually hone to 35°, there's nothing magical about 25° for a BD plane blade, IMHO. Don't go over 35° or the blade won't cut anymore - DAMHIKT. Try the blade at 2000 grit, it'll probably do a great job. 5000 or 8000 waterstone make an improvement, but not so strikingly to begin with.

 

Curving the blade freehand, or with a guide is not too difficult, as Mel said, just put finger pressure on the edges, one at a time, and give them a few more strokes.

 

Now, let's see some shavings...

 

John

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Also I've still got some more work to do on the No 4 frog, the No 5 frog needs to be lapped, and the blades need sharpening. I still need to finish the block plane too, though at least I'm (mostly) happy with the sharpness of the blade. So I have a little way to go before I can make some shavings. Also the blade and chip breaker need a little more attention too to finish removing the rust.

 

One of the reasons I've started learning about woodworking is to slow down, to disconnect (and here I am at a computer - not disconnecting!). This is me taking it slow and steady. Can't say it's easy.

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What is the difference between the 25 and 35 degree blade angles?

 

It's my understanding the 35 degree is harder to push through, but the edge lasts longer - hence micro bevels on chisels and plane blades. Is that right?

The bevel is down, so the cutting angle is always that of the frog, usually 45°, irrespective of the bevel angle. The larger the angle, the more steel there is, so it should be more robust. Above 35° however, there isn't enough room for the fibres to spring back behind the blade - they start to lift the blade up. It's called the clearance angle, and that's why you can't go to the logical 45° maximum bevel angle.

 

This doesn't apply to chisels or bevel up blades, however. You're observations are quite correct wrt chisels. Some people prefer not to put micro bevels on chisels, as this makes them impossible to register when used bevel down.

 

John

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I've started lapping the No 5's frog which it has obviously not been done in a long time if ever. It's in as bad a shape as the sole was. 

 

How straight does the edge of the frog have to be?

 

Also, how flat does it need to be?

I'm guessing the leading edge is the most important bit, but are there any other areas I should pay particular attention to?

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So the No 4 can now produce full width shavings which are 1000th or less of an inch thick. That's almost the limit of my digital callipers which can register between a 1000th and a 5000th.

 

It is taking a lot of work to make those shavings on some red oak I've been working with recently but the surface is coming up nice. I'm not bearing down on the plane much at all. How much pressure should I be using? I used some bees wax I had lying around to help lubricate the surface, would paraffin wax be better?

 

It doesn't help the crappy little work bench I'm using kept on moving across the floor, even after I put a breeze block on the bottom shelf. I was watching a Paul Sellers video the other evening, where he was using just the weight of the plane to get a shaving and he didn't seem to be using nearly the level effort I was having to use. I know I'm really unfit, but I'm not convinced that`s the problem!

 

The No 5 is proving to be more difficult to get right. There's no screw at the back of the frog which is making adjusting the frog much harder. I've also noticed I have to crank down hard on the chip breaker or it tends to slip, but that in turn flexes the blade, no doubt changing the angle of the blade. Could that be contributing my problems?

 

I've stopped now for the weekend as it`s 9pm and will probably return to this next weekend.

 

Note to self: When sharpening your blades on sandpaper (even fine paper like the 2000 grit), make sure you are not resting your wrist on the sandpaper. I now have a small, very smooth and leaking spot on the heel of my wrist as I wasn't entirely aware I was touching the paper. Ouch.

 

On the plus side, I can now see my face in the soles of my planes. Not quite enough to fix my make up (judging by my avatar I need it!), but shiny enough.

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Different species will give different results. I've not really used Red oak but I'm assuming it's quite hard. The timber Paul demonstartes on is European Redwood. A very mild and easy working softwood, if your plane can't plane that then.........

A bit more pressure can be required in harder species, just keep practicing, it sound like they are working well enough to me.

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Glad you've got the #4 working properly. Switch to the Cherry, it's much easier to work than Oak. Once you build up confidence with that, you can move back to the Oak, though you'll probably need more pressure because the pores are larger, and you'll get dust with the shavings.

 

You're missing the frog screw? I usually feel for square with my fingers then tighten the vertical bolts a little, check again, then tighten down more.

 

The chipbreaker, or cap iron is almost as important as the blade. Make sure the front edge is flat, so that the very tip sits perfectly on the back of the blade. Even the smallest gap will cause shavings to jam. I put a 70° bevel on the cap iron - sounds counterproductive, but it actually improves the results. There was an interesting Japanese study about this which Wilbur Pan translated.

 

Though you have to tighten the cap iron to the blade firmly, it shouldn't bend the blade, perhaps there's too much curvature on the cap iron?

 

For the #5 you can have the cap iron about 1/32" (0.5mm) away from the cutting edge. For the #4 you'll want to go closer - depends on your eyesight.

 

HTH

 

John

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I found a piece of construction 2x4 white pine, and figured I'd give that a try with the No 4. I'm still getting 1000th" shavings, but it's still quite hard to push the blade through. Of course, I have no point of reference to tell how hard it should be.

 

That said, I just adjusted the chip breaker and when I measured it, it came out at just over 1/64th of an inch. I took a shaving on the pine and I was using maybe a quarter of the force to produce a 3000th" thick shaving. So I guess that's where the problem was!

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Having watched several videos, Paul Sellers and Shannon Rogers particularly, I decided I'd try and square up the aforementioned 2 by 4. I've still not quite got the No 5 right, so I'm going to put that aside for now and probably have another look at it some time when I want to procrastinate.

 

So I made a pair of winding sticks from some already squared up oak I had left over from a project, and drew a black line on with a sharpie. (That's a felt tip pen to you Graham). That was an adventure in itself as I discovered neither was quite straight enough for a winding stick. The No 4 worked very well in straightening them out, though I did notice I'm rolling the plane to the left creating a wedge shape. That's going to be an on going issue I think.

 

post-6539-0-62240100-1395518914_thumb.jp

 

After an hour or so I managed to get the 2 by 4 squared up to a reasonable accuracy: The surface is beautifully smooth with very little tear out despite the gnarly nature of construction grade pine. 

 

post-6539-0-93752000-1395518915_thumb.jp

 

I drew the line on the right first and followed it round with my combi-square until they (almost) met. It's not quite square at that point, as you can see. But considering the total distance is about 6" I'm happy with that for now.

 

Glutton for punishment that I am, I've seen a total of 7 planes (in two lots) on Kijiji I've bid on to buy up and renovate. I will more than likely sell most of them to feed my new hand plane renovation addiction. They are a mix of 4s and 5s and one block plane. I'm hoping at least one of the 5s will be in a better condition and quality than the 5 I bought this time. The first two which I'm planning on getting on Tuesday are a No 4 and a No 5. The other five planes, I know one of the No 4s is missing the knob from the front, but knobs are comparatively cheap to replace and I know I can get a replacement from Lee Valley locally.

 

I'm also on the hunt for a spokeshave as I'm really tired of sanding curves I've cut on my bandsaw. I saw one a little while ago, but it was gone by the time I had got in touch with the seller.

 

I'm just glad my wife doesn't read these forums.

 

Today has reminded me I desperately need a decent work bench. My back is rather sore now! However totally worth it. I managed flatten all four sides with a reasonable degree of accuracy (without turning the 2x4 into a very long tooth pick), square up all four sides and take twist out of the piece too. A great accomplishment. Next I'm going to try flattening one face of something I actually care about - a 4ft long 10 1/4" wide piece of cherry which is too wide to go over my jointer.

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I'm quite impressed with the results Andrew - well done. 'Thinking' square with the plane will come with a little practice, as does sawing square. If you're going to flatten a board, you'd better be on the look out for a #7 or #8. The #7's are more plentiful. If you need the full 4 feet, alright, otherwise I'd suggest shortening it - makes the job easier.

 

Take nearly all of the pressure off the knob when coming to the end of the work, then you won't get those 'waves' at the top of the squared off pine. If that's where you were starting, you probably got a little chatter, so try starting off a little skewed, then straighten up once you're cutting wood.

 

Keep us posted on your progress.

 

John

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Went to look at the first two planes from Kijiji today, but decided against buying them. The No 4 had plastic handles, which probably meant it was made in the 70s, and the No 5 was missing the screw behind the frog. The screw could probably have been replaced, but overall, it just didn't feel right. I was hoping to sell the No 4 once I'd renovated it to pay for the No 5, but I just don't think they were worth it.

 

The waves on the end of the board I think is where I'm putting too much of the toe on the board, so the blade is contacting the piece before I begin the stroke. I just need to start 1/4" further back and I won't get that problem.

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