Shop size

[jHop]

I know I'm late to the party. (what else is new?)

I had an idea as I was driving by a couple of places in the area. What about a converted store / storefront? There are several (too many) vacant stores in the area near me, and I was considering expanding the shop. Not now, but in a few years, when I actually have the funds to afford it.

Or do you start looking at the zoning ordinances, and find out that the woodwork falls into "production," instead of retail?

As for insulation, I caught (some time ago) an episode with Steve Jobs of some show, where they were talking about a new kind of insulation: a concrete foam. Has anybody 1) heard about this, and 2) seen anybody use it, and 3) know if it could be used for shop insulation? the project house they were doing was stick built, and completely gutted, to the point you could see daylight peeking through the gaps in the half-lap siding.

And as for "shop flow," I caught a link to a shop in one of the woodworking magazine websites. (Might even have been PopWoodworking?) The garage door entrance fronted on sheet good storage, and was on the other side of the short wall that hid the finishing area, so full size projects could leave the shop. This is particularly a problem I did not foresee when I jumped at the chance to put a shop in the basement of my current residence...

[DALSAW]

I have a little problem, evidently I have a Home owners association in the subdivision I that I live in. Didn't know we had one no monthly payments or anything like that, but anyway I had a nasty letter in the mail today form them. Some how they caught wind that I was building a new shop and this is what they said "we do not want a large commercial building in our subdvision and by erecting one I would be in violation of the covenant". Well this rains on my parade. They also said that I need to remove the container that is behind my current shop. And that they didn't like me riding my dirt bike. But anyway what do I do now?

[Vic]

I have a little problem, evidently I have a Home owners association in the subdivision I that I live in. Didn't know we had one no monthly payments or anything like that, but anyway I had a nasty letter in the mail today form them. Some how they caught wind that I was building a new shop and this is what they said "we do not want a large commercial building in our subdvision and by erecting one I would be in violation of the covenant". Well this rains on my parade. They also said that I need to remove the container that is behind my current shop. And that they didn't like me riding my dirt bike. But anyway what do I do now?

Well, for one thing, get a copy of the covenants and figure out if they hold any water. Remember though, that you can sue anyone for any reason, pretty much. It's a matter of whether a court will hear it, as I understand it. But, the first thing to do is understand your rights. It's one of the reasons I moved where I live. No homeowners association and no covenants. Good luck, Aaron.

[PaulMarcel]

Many of those aren't enforceable. Apparently my neighborhood had some that included "you are allowed to paint the exterior of your house so long as it is the same color" ? Geez, Simple Green it if that's the case... I found out when I painted my house a dark color. They should be more concerned about my neighbor with foot-tall weeds and a car parked on the 'lawn' for the past 18 months unmoved.

Those rules are usually put in place to keep a busy-body jobless spouse in the neighborhood busy acting like the association police. Ours was like that; later she was evicted for not paying property taxes for 4 years I love Karma.

The one thing is the "commercial" building aspect. If you plan on running a business there, you'll need to check with the local regulations to ensure that you can run a commercial shop.

But otherwise, look into it... those are just dumb-azz rules

[markhochstein]

I once sat on the board of an HOA - in a failed effort to bring some sanity to the organization. Most HOA's cannot afford to pursue legal action against "violators", but there is one very inexpensive way that they can use to apply leverage - a lien. They typically place the lien for the outstanding amount of penalties due. So, even though there may be legal issues such as a precedent of non-enforcement for similar violations, it will be a costly battle. Once the lien is placed, you will not be able to sell the propery or even get a home equity line of credit until it is satisfied and removed. Now, I'm not saying that this will happen in your case. I'm just trying to pass on some lessons learned. You may be able to build a building that matches the look of your house, but most HOA's have covenants against operating a business from a residential lot as well, so look into that too.

The nail in the coffin for me was when the HOA went after a woodworker friend (who's shop was in his basement) for operating a business out of his house because he had small items for sale and had business cards printed that listed his home address.

I feel for you, and that's exactly why I moved to an area with no HOA. Every HOA is different and wording of the covenants is different. I wish you luck and hope that you are able to find a solution that can work for you.

[DALSAW]

Well guys I had a talk with the head of the HOA, And we came to a compromise the new shop is now going to be a 24'X32' with 10' celings it will be stick framed on a 4" slab, and it will be sided with vinyl siding to match the house. I am going to get rid of my shipping container after the new shop is built. so I've made them happy and I'm going to save a bunch money at the same time. It's going to take a little longer to build than the kit. Oh and now I can get new Powermatic tools to go in it when its finished. Hehehe.

[Ben@FineWoodworking]

Really glad you found a way to make it work. My heart sank when I read that post.

It always amazes me that you can own something and not be able to do what you want with it.

I understand there is a need at times for a HOA but they seem to make life miserable for us good people more than they do the ones that need it.

Good luck.

[DALSAW]

Thanks, Ben It kinda sucks that I cain't have my dream shop, but I can kinda see their point of a large metal building at the entrance of the the subdvision might turn off some home buyers. Any way its still going to be a fun project work on. I'm also going to cut back on the my business of building cabinets to one or two sets a year, that way I can join the Guild after the shops built, and build some projects a long with them. So I don't really need a building that large anyway.

[chopnhack]

Wow Aaron, that sucks. I am glad to hear that at least you will still be able to put up something! And 24x32 is nothing to sneeze at Will this be attached somehow to your house? You might want to consider it so that future resale would show increased square footage, might be a plus for a buyer, they could use it as an inlaw suite or something. Would you frame the walls with 2x6? Better insulation and more room for wiring.

Do you not make cabs for a living? What will you be doing for work with all that extra time?

[markhochstein]

Well guys I had a talk with the head of the HOA, And we came to a compromise the new shop is now going to be a 24'X32' with 10' celings it will be stick framed on a 4" slab, and it will be sided with vinyl siding to match the house. I am going to get rid of my shipping container after the new shop is built. so I've made them happy and I'm going to save a bunch money at the same time. It's going to take a little longer to build than the kit. Oh and now I can get new Powermatic tools to go in it when its finished. Hehehe.

That's great Aaron! I'm sure you will be really happy with your shop. Think about using attic trusses so you can increase your space by about 60%. Your shop will be almost exactly the same size as mine. As I said before, consider breaking the space up a bit to add a little more wall space. I hope you start a thread on your shop construction and take us through the process. We all like to see a new shop going up!

[jHop]

Most HOA's cannot afford to pursue legal action against "violators", but there is one very inexpensive way that they can use to apply leverage - a lien. They typically place the lien for the outstanding amount of penalties due. So, even though there may be legal issues such as a precedent of non-enforcement for similar violations, it will be a costly battle. Once the lien is placed, you will not be able to sell the propery or even get a home equity line of credit until it is satisfied and removed.

Having worked for a couple of lenders, I feel I'm (only slightly) qualified to add my $1.37 to this comment. (Inflation, interest, and fees. On second thought, if fees were involved, it would be closer to $1,450.39)

While it is true most lenders will not grant a Home Equity Loan or Line of Credit if a lien from an HOA is in effect on your house, that does not hold true to every lender. For those who do not already know, most Home Equity products are considered a "second mortgage" product, meaning it is the second lien to be paid off when (heaven forbid) anything should happen to your house. Say, for example, you default on a loan, or your house burns down because you accidentally wadded up rags that you used with BLO and dropped them into the same bin you have hooked up to the DC. When the house is sold, or the insurance pays out, the lenders get paid in the order the liens are filed.

So, say you have your primary home loan through Whisperer First National Bank. Your Home Equity Line of Credit is through Basement Werks Regional Bank. Your HOA files a lien, and it is in third position. You can (if you research or negotiate with a potential lender) get another Line of Credit with AnyBank Credit Union lender to be added, in what would be fourth position. But you should be leery of any third or fourth position lender.

Now, should you pay off your second loan, that means all the other liens bump up a position. So what was the fourth position lien, now becomes the third position lien, and your HOA lien is now in second position.

Most people should be looking at me like "duh. Where you been?" Here's where it gets fun.

Some lenders can negotiate with existing lienholders. These can be lenders or HOAs. One of the conditions of funding (you getting your money) can be a "position deferment letter" from one or more lienholders. These letters are basically consent from that organization to drop a position and allow someone else to take a position ahead of them. So, in the above example, if the HOA agreed, the new loan from Anybank can be in second position.

Now, Loogie is absolutely correct, that nothing can happen to your house until all the liens are paid off and cleared. However, somethimes accidents happen, and titles get transferred without the liens being cleared. This is where title insurance comes into play. Most second position lenders, ironically enough, do not like to have title insurance as part of the title agency's closing conditions. It's a catch 22, unfortunately.

It also depends on what type of state you are in. Most states have a Register of Deeds. Some states, however, allow what's known as UCC filings. These can be legitimate liens, but the UCC filing can drop off without anybody realizing it. UCC filings (in most states) require "renewal" filings. If the renewal is not in by a deadline (depends on the state), the legitimate lien can be released without the lienholder's consent.

This is a long-winded explanation of something most people don't ever want to know, and will only rarely experience (hopefully). Keep in mind this also holds true if you pay off the first mortgage lien, instead of the second lien.

But if you have come to an agreement with your HOA, you avoid all of this issue. Do you have to make the outbuilding resemble the house, or can it resemble just an outbuilding/garage/shed? I read an article online that showed one guy's shop is a two floor building that is 60% the size of his existing house. So it looks, from the street, like there are two identical houses on the property, with the second one appearing farther back than it actually is. The building described in this article sounds like it would not pass your HOA's bylaws, however. But if they allow your smaller footprint shop to resemble the house, they may allow you to build it slightly larger, and you have the added benefit of a better chance of selling it.

For those who are worrying that an HOA has already filed a lien without notifying you (which can happen), a simple title search can tell you everything that has been filed on your property. This is required every time you file for a new loan or line of credit, but you can go to the county registrar's office or a title agency and request one yourself, for a nominal fee. And no, I will not guess what that fee is, because each title agency can charge a different amount.

I'm glad to hear your crisis has been averted. And I'm sorry to hear your shop will not be as large as you had hoped. At least you will still be able to build a stand-alone shop! Congratulations!