Just Joinery and Glue?

[mzingali]

Hey All,

Obviously new here but I have a pretty basic question. Are you guys making furniture and other items with joinery and glue...no screws?

I've never made anything with the tongue and groove technique or biscuits or even dowels...was just rudimentary cut, drill, and screw together. I'm interested in real woodworking...in the videos of the dressers and chairs being built..i never see any type of fasteners.

The end products are beautiful but could someone clarify this for me? I'm in the process of making a stout fish tank stand for my little girl's fish tank...kinda overkill but I want it heavy and sturdy do I don't have to worry about the tank tipping over. I was just going to cuts some 4x4s and use lag bolts to bolt them together...then put up some veneers on the exterior with some trim to make it look nice.

Has anyone made anything like this that can withstand a few hundred pounds on it and be super sturdy? Can I make the legs of the stand tongue and groove and just use wood glue to hold it all together?

I'm all ears...waiting for some holiday sales to get some power tools so I want to get the design down now.

TIA,

Mike

[Beechwood Chip]

I was surprised when I learned this - it's not obvious...

A long grain to long grain glue joint is stronger than the wood. When you stress test it and it breaks, the wood breaks around the glue joint.

So, the craft of it is to find a way to eliminate any end grain joints.

Screws also work, and can be very quick and convenient.

[tombuhl]

Before going too far with design, take a stroll through Marc's video archive. Lots of good basics and the projects, even if not like your particular need, will demonstrate joinery and approaches that are valuable. Mortise and Tenons are classic joints and very strong if made reasonably well. Biscuits and tongue and groove are not really structural. More to help align components. Dowels can be used for reasonable strength if done well. But most folks looking to elevate their work can turn their nose up at dowels. They are used a lot in factory furniture. I've seen lots of broken legs joints that used dowels. James Krenov, a legend of woodworking, used dowels often for case construction. They have some advantages, depending upon design. Dominos (a Festool "system") have value. I seem to find myself using shop-made loose tenons these days. Began splines, but now find myself finding reasons to loose tenons for mortise and tenon joinery in certain circumstances. Still traditional Mortise and Tenon is my basic joint tough.

Lots of options, but give yourself a bit of time to study the folks doing quality work (e.g., tww, popular woodworking magazine folks, fine wooodworking magazine). Also many online sources of videos and blogs, The problem is that there is lots of junk ideas floating out there as well. So know your source. As you develop your fish tank stand, post some simple pix and you'll probably get valuable feedback. The group in the wto forums are very helpful and quite knowledgeable.

Screws are commonly used to fasten tops to base or case. Also used to attach hardware, but generally not used for structural elements. Some folks use pocket screws even on some pretty nifty work. Much depends upon design. Just as snob factor I tend to avoid screws, but there are places where they perform a proper (by my standards) function. No rules are hard and fast...unless I say so ; )

Become an observer and see how the work that appeals to you is created.

Welcome aboard.

[PaulMarcel]

I have a 55 gallon octagon tank sitting on a base I had made by the aquarium maker (long long ago). The base is particle board cut to form the octagon and glued up. Some blocks glued to the sides hold the shelf in place. The whole thing was sanded very smooth then coated in a splatter paint. He used a couple screws in each joint going from one face into the edge of the other. The screws would have been covered in Bondo. It is a rock and has been moved through a couple states.

As woodworkers we all over-build to the nth degree. I'll be the first to raise my hand on that, too. Depending on the look you want for the tank, screws and Bondo can be a perfect build. If your stand looked like mine (I didn't build it), it wouldn't matter if you did hand-cut dovetails under the splatter paint. The end result, though, looks pretty good. Bondo could also fill pocket screw holes, though for an octagon, you couldn't use them.

If you want a stain-grade cabinet, you don't need a ton of lumber like 4x4s. Even some simple joinery will do the trick. Do you have a design we can look at to look over the joinery? I think you do as I remember this project, but I don't know where it is and the forum is ridiculously slow tonight. Besides, stuff like screws and Bondo/filler would be completely covered by the veneer. That requires few tools other than a drill, circ saw, screw driver, putty knife, and sanding block for the cabinet.

[mzingali]

Thanks for the replies guys! Yeah, I was having trouble last night registering for the chat feature on the site.

I had come across a crude design for a fish tank stand made out of 4x4s...i know it's overkill but I do want it heavy. I have a 16 month old little girl that likes to pull and tug on everything. I have a 40 gallon feeder tank that will sit on the stand.

I'm trashing the designs because it's just cut and screw together. I'm trying to figure out a design that I can use tongue and groove joinery with glue to basically make a rectangular box out of 4x4s. I'll have to look up the exact dimensions that I need but I'm drawing out the plans on paper at the moment for the joinery in the corners of the stand...both vertical and horizontal.

I'll get some graph paper and sketch out something and post it later today. A fish tank stand needs it's support under it's perimeter.

I'm working on it now...lol I'll see what I can come up with.

The other issue I had when I started to put the front face (4 pieces of 4x4) together was that my miter cuts were nice and smooth but the pieces of 4x4 where not exactly straight. I really see the need of using a jointer and planer!!! (like i said, i'm a noob)

I'll end for now...design time.

Mike

[RenaissanceWW]

MIke you have mentioned tongue & groove twice now and I feel I have to complicate your life by saying that the T&G joint is great but not nearly as strong as a mortise and tenon joint. The reason being that the tongue part of T&G is very short and does not provide much in the way of glue surface. The joint will break and is subject to a lot of wracking stress. My fear if you build a box this way is that it might not be as strong as you need for the weight of a 4o gallon tank and all the water. T&G joinery is usually kept to flooring, cabinet backs, or sometimes bottoms of chests. It is mainly used so that boards have the ability to shrink and swell through the seasons and therefore is often not glued up at all. I know I'm opening a can of worms here but there is some great advice above and Marc's site is a plethora of great tips and videos to help you understand the world of wood to wood joinery. Good luck and we are all here to help so keep asking questions.

Shannon

[Bombarde16]

...it's overkill but I do want it heavy. I have a 16 month old little girl that likes to pull and tug on everything. I have a 40 gallon feeder tank that will sit on the stand.

So, this isn't a really a joinery question. Given a tank of water sitting still (i.e. no torquing forces or live loads) on top of some 4x4 construction lumber, you can do damn near whatever you want. Heck, drive a car over it and you'll still have plenty of strength.

The more important matter is physics and centers of gravity. I understand that the tank needs to be supported under its perimeter; but is there any way to give the base a bigger footprint than the tank? How high will this tank be and what are the dimensions?

[mzingali]

Um..sorry for the noob mistake...i meant mortise and tenon..not tongue and groove..i recently got the Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery by Gary Rogowski. I was thinking of the right thing..just not calling it the correct name...lol

The tank is going to be stationary..but the cheap particle board stand it's on now...not good...my 16 month old grabs onto it and I can see the surface of the water start to slosh around. That's the reason for the 4x4s...yes it's overkill but it'll be heavy and the little one can push all she wants and bang all she wants on it...it's not gunna budge.

I'm trying to come up for the design where I the corners of the stand are all 4x4s. On page 349 of this book, it describes a mitered tenon...inside a table leg.

Might be too complicated for my first project but I'll try to take a pic of my sketch and scale legend and post it...when i figure how to do that..lol I'll have better answers for you guys as far as height, width, etc once i can draw it out. I really don't know exactly at this point. I already have started on graph paper so hopefully soon I can show you guys what i'm thinking of doing and getting some feedback.

Mike

[kep1019]

I built a fishtank stand for a 55 gallon tank. I like you built an internal from from 2 x 4 not 4x used exterior 3/4 ply for the top where the tank stands and then applied a 3/4" solid oak frame around the sub structure. worked well and has not sagged at all over 5 years old.

[kesac]

Um..sorry for the noob mistake...i meant mortise and tenon..not tongue and groove..i recently got the Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery by Gary Rogowski. I was thinking of the right thing..just not calling it the correct name...lol

The tank is going to be stationary..but the cheap particle board stand it's on now...not good...my 16 month old grabs onto it and I can see the surface of the water start to slosh around. That's the reason for the 4x4s...yes it's overkill but it'll be heavy and the little one can push all she wants and bang all she wants on it...it's not gunna budge.

I'm trying to come up for the design where I the corners of the stand are all 4x4s. On page 349 of this book, it describes a mitered tenon...inside a table leg.

Might be too complicated for my first project but I'll try to take a pic of my sketch and scale legend and post it...when i figure how to do that..lol I'll have better answers for you guys as far as height, width, etc once i can draw it out. I really don't know exactly at this point. I already have started on graph paper so hopefully soon I can show you guys what i'm thinking of doing and getting some feedback.

Mike

[kesac]

You can make it just about however you would like. Whatever you do, you will see opportunities down the road for changes and improvements. Traditional joinery and glue, if done reasonably well will usually be stronger than a screw joint, but there are lots of ways to skin a cat, and we all started somewhere, and most of us are still enroute to somewhere else.

This is America, you can do whatever you please.