cjasfenton Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 So it's become pretty obvious pretty fast that the one little handsaw I have is wildly insufficient for cutting tenons, lap joints etc. It's just too small. But, I don't know where to start. For joinery am I looking for a rip saw or a crosscut saw? And then what depth of cut am I looking for? I know the obvious answer on that is "it depends on how big a joint you're cutting." I'm just wondering what the first one should be. Should I grab the big tenon saw first, or go with something smaller like a carcass saw? Just looking for versatility and make sure I'm not getting something too big to properly learn on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 What sort of work are you looking at doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Tarbell Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Shannon says in most cases a beginner is best suited to buy a crosscut carcass saw as their first joinery saw and elaborates as to why: http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/rww187-which-saw-first/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjasfenton Posted December 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 What sort of work are you looking at doing? Haven't really settled on that specifically. I've really enjoyed the little toy furniture I've been making for my daughter - oven, sink, etc. It's really the only project I've (nearly) completed at this point. Thanks for the link Bill. I've been all over Shannon's site and hadn't seen that one yet. Think the hand tool school will be a Christmas present to myself, so I'm guessing the carcass saw will do me well through at least that first semester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgaron Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Ripping with a crosscut saw is slower but can be done. Buy a backsaw or two from the hardware store, a mill file, a saw file (Ace has these by Nicholson, many other stores will not have them. Otherwise use Amazon. No need for expensive saw files until you see fit for them) and read this: http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html The saw from the hardware store may not be very sharp (a sharp saw will not slip on your palm but will pull the skin), and will have machine punched teeth, so go ahead and sharpen it as-is and try it out. If you like it, leave it alone for now, if not or if you bought a few $9 backsaws, mess with one and make it look like one of the saws in the article. You don't have to be perfect, the imperfection makes it work better! Eventually you may want a saw set tool, this can be had by various specialty retailers or Amazon. The Blackburn webpage even has some saw handle templates if you want to make a new handle for your hardware store backsaw, and TGIAG.com or Amazon have saw nuts. The ones on Amazon are by Great Neck and aren't as pretty but are much cheaper than specialty nuts. I've not ordered from TGIAG yet but have been wanting to get some parts to build a saw from scratch from them for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjasfenton Posted December 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Gilgaron, I was looking at the $9 jobby at HD just to get through a couple quick projects. I'll have to take a look at this article tonight and see if I can find a local Ace that has the sharpening tools. Thanks for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Tarbell Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Gilgaron, I was looking at the $9 jobby at HD just to get through a couple quick projects. I'll have to take a look at this article tonight and see if I can find a local Ace that has the sharpening tools. Thanks for the info. My understanding is that the cheap home store saws often have hardened teeth and are not made to be resharpened. Take a close look at the teeth to see if they're a darker color than the rest of the blade. If so, then attempting to sharpen them will simply yield a quickly dulled file. They expect you to go buy another cheap $10 saw to replace it when the first one gets dull. Here's a quick google image of the discoloration caused by hardening steel with heat: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgaron Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 True of the panel or hand saws, but I've not seen any hardened backsaws. Good to bring it up just in case, though! You can grind those off and get into the unhardened steel, but then you'd be cutting new teeth from scratch and it'd be easier to find some old saws at a garage sale instead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3nry Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yes ... It depends on what you're going to be building, and what you're making it out of. I got by with a $10 back-saw for my first couple of projects - worked fine. But then I bought the Veritas carcass saws and never looked back. The cheap saw still gets used for cutting up 2x4s which it is very good at, but if you're going to be making much fine furniture with hand-tools you will be using your joinery saws _all_the_time_, and you'll really appreciate having a better saw. The carcass saw is small enough to cut nice dovetails and I've only once needed to cut a tenon too big for it, and then the trusty $10 saw came to the rescue. If I had to pick just one, I think the cross-cut rips better than the rip cross-cuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Lee valley sells a set of two (one cc on rip) for a very reasonable price. Check em out.http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884,64007 Orhttp://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=71370&cat=1,42884,68511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Tarbell Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 While i have a couple of the veritas saws and think they're priced fairly, i do have to acknowledge that they're over 7x the amount you were planning on paying. If they're out of your current budget then you may want to consider a pull saw. They cut on the pull stroke rather than on the push and you're typically able to get a bit more quality for a lower price point. Here are a couple on Amazon that have good reviews and are near your mentioned price. Shark 10-2204 Dowel/Dovetail/Detail Saw - $15 Shark Corp 10-2312 12-Inch Carpentry Saw - $20 Gyokucho 770-3500 Razor Dozuki Saw with Blade - $25 .... but in digging those results up i also noticed that the cheap stanley saws also have a 5 star rating, so perhaps the ratings are relative to expectations? Anyway, here are the 5 star stanleys. Perhaps they'll work just as well as the pull saws. Stanley FatMax 17-202 14-Inch Back Saw - $10 Stanley 20-045 15-Inch Fat Max Hand Saw - $13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjasfenton Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Oh I'm willing to pay to get a quality saw. I just grabbed the box store version to quickly finish a project. Thanks for all the links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Tarbell Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Awesome. I haven't tried any others, but i do recommend the veritas line. Paul Sellers (who has likely tried more saws than anyone) also recommends them: https://paulsellers.com/2011/08/looking-for-dovetail-saws-buy-veritas/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I thoroughly enjoy Japanese style saws. I've got a Dozuki and a Ryoba saw which I find more than sufficient for hand cut joinery. Really clean cuts and pretty quick at that. I also have a Gents saw that I use from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgaron Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 I don't have any Veritas saws, but I have some of their other tools and I'm sure they are great if you want to spend more money. I also came close to buying a Sash Saw from Tools for Working Wood but changing the teeth on some old backsaws was a lot cheaper. That article I linked to is worth reading if you want to know more about what the difference between rip and crosscuts are for when you need to resharpen your saw, and a $10 unhardened hardware store saw may be a worthwhile investment for practice before you take a file to the Veritas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 I'm down the road in Lubbock. If you want to try a Japanese ryoba or a bad axe back saw you're certainly welcome to take them for a spin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Veritas does seem a foolproof way in. Shannon's posting is a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted December 10, 2014 Report Share Posted December 10, 2014 Also, Fatmax from the link would be a great budget option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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