3 HP Unisaw cabinet saw versus 3 HP SawStop cabinet saw

[Onboard]

I didn’t want to hijack Nick Feola’s current post so I’m posting my question separately. Nick’s question is on a SawStop contractors table saw, mine is not.

Delta recently dropped their Delta 36-L352 3 HP 10 in. Table Saw (aka Unisaw) price to $3,000 which is now the same as the 3.0HP SawStop 10" Professional Cabinet Saw. Both with fence systems and 52” rails.

I’ve always been partial to the current Unisaw. I like both rise and tilt wheels on the front for one thing. I’ve read a number of reviews on the Unisaw and the 3 HP SawStop. From both user reviews and “professional” reviews the quality of the Unisaw seems to edge out the SawStop. Notice I said “edge”. There is no major difference in quality that I’m aware of.

My question is, can anyone comment on the quality and feature set of the Unisaw compared to the SawStop WITHOUT mentioning anything about the flesh detection technology on the SawStop? I’m well aware of the “safety” feature (singular) of the SawStop and don’t need any comments on that aspect. Since most posts on the SawStop are dominated by information on the flesh detection feature it’s hard to find comments that go beyond that. So, I’m wondering if someone is considering a full out 3 HP cabinet saw, and not looking at the SS safety feature, which of the two cabinet saws would you purchase, and why?

I would greatly appreciate any comments regarding my questions above.

[Mister Pants]

I've used both in a couple of classes but don't own either, so my experience is a little limited. From what I've been able to tell they do seem similar in quality. Where I find the big difference is in the extension wing side. The legs and extension of the Unisaw seem to be much sturdier than the SawStop. Changing the blade and riving knife on the Unisaw seem to be a bit easier too, but that's probably personal preference. I think the trunnions on the Unisaw are a little beefier than those of the SawStop too but at that point its probably getting nitpicky. Both are good high quality saws, but I think the Unisaw is a little better made (I also really like the way they moved both wheels to the front), which makes sense too since they can put more of their production money into the fit, finish and extras at the same price since they aren't putting in the extra safety stuff.

[reforzar]

I agree... I worked at a shop and we had both. When we wanted to change the blade on the sawstop it was sometimes a hassle to get everything working. therefore we didn't ever try and put the dado blade on it. my boss hit a staple in a piece of wood and that activated the "flesh saving technology" which ended up costing us a couple hundred cash and a couple of days to get the piece. as great as the technology is (i might get one someday) there are drawbacks. i personally would buy the unisaw. good luck.

[Vic]

Honestly, for me, I have an older X5 Unisaw. It's a great machine. Flat top, beefy all around. I've had a nasty kick back and that taught me a good deal of respect. All the other tools in my shop are just as menacing as my TS, and while I think the "idea" of the Sawstop is good, I marvel at how many oops are posted. Does it tend to make people complacent? It almost seems to do so. I remember when they installed back up cams in some of the FedEx trucks, when I worked for them. It did not decrease backing accidents. They actually increased, because people tended to rely on them instead of looking at their surroundings before backing. Just my 2 cents.

[Danny Hellyar]

I personally own a 21 year old Powermatic 66 and it is still working flawlessly, but if I were buying today I'd go with the Unisaw over the Saw Stop for the previously posted reasons. I can't tell you how many times over the years I've cut through a nail, staple or screw . This is exactly what I meant when I posted a comment on Nicks blog saying I would be setting it off accidentally way more often than I'd like. So chalk up another vote for the Unisaw!

[Jerry_in_SD]

I believe the new Delta Unisaw is best compared with the SawStop industrial cabinet saw. The PCS table is the same dimensions as their contractors saw and both are smaller than the Unisaw. If that is important to you, you should factor that in your decision.

I own the PCS and I would love to own a larger, beefier saw, like the industrial but space is at a premium. The PCS actually takes less space than the Delta contractors saw it replaced.

[Grixxly]

I don't own either and haven't used either, but I've been told that if the Powermatic 66 is the cadillac of saws the sawstop is a mercedes. And the local dealer sells the safe mechanism, or whatever it's called for $60 (I think). I like the idea behind the sawstop and I agree it'd be a pain in the behind to have it trip because of a staple or something, but I'd rather keep an extra mechanism on hand and keep the 10 digits I've got.

[Onboard]

Just a friendly reminder to those replying to my post. I’m well aware of and appreciate the Saw Stop flesh detection technology. I really want to hear about the difference between the Unisaw and the Saw stop in terms of build quality, precision, accuracy and feature differences. If someone wants to comment on the Powermatic 1792000K Model 2000 that is okay since it’s in the same category as the first two.

Thank you for NOT commenting on the flesh detection feature of Saw Stop.

[Dyami Plotke]

Just a friendly reminder to those replying to my post. I’m well aware of and appreciate the Saw Stop flesh detection technology. I really want to hear about the difference between the Unisaw and the Saw stop in terms of build quality, precision, accuracy and feature differences. If someone wants to comment on the Powermatic 1792000K Model 2000 that is okay since it’s in the same category as the first two.

Thank you for NOT commenting on the flesh detection feature of Saw Stop.

Onboard,

It's a few years old at this point, but the last FWW review of cabinet saws said that the Sawstop & Powermatic 66 were tied for best saw (that was before the new Delta Unisaw came out). Any way you go, you'll end up with a nice saw.

Please excuse the commentary, but having watched a good friend cut off 2 fingers on a table saw, I think that puts the Sawstop ahead.

[Onboard]

Onboard,

It's a few years old at this point, but the last FWW review of cabinet saws said that the Sawstop & Powermatic 66 were tied for best saw (that was before the new Delta Unisaw came out). Any way you go, you'll end up with a nice saw.

Please excuse the commentary, but having watched a good friend cut off 2 fingers on a table saw, I think that puts the Sawstop ahead.

Thank you Dyami. I should mention that I'm mainly trying to get a comparison of the newest Unisaw to other cabinet saws in the same category. The reports that I’ve seen from both magazine reviews and individuals observations put the Unisaw ahead of the SawStop and even the Powermatic.

You do touch on an interesting point though. I have thought about posting a different sort of question in regards to the SawStop, but haven’t. However, maybe you can help me here. I’m wondering if consumers of the SawStop are being driven by a fear factor, or is purchasing a SawStop simply the only rational thing to do. If the conclusion (wherever that may come from) is that it is irrational to buy a saw that does not have a flesh detection function, then the other saw manufacturers might as well go out of business and leave SawStop as a monopoly.

I realize that other manufacturers of table saws can come up with their own technology, or they could license it from SawStop. I would imagine that the other companies probably don’t want to do that, or at least they haven’t so far. I also realize that the cheapest SawStop costs around $1,700 to $1,800 (Contractor tablesaw). So, for those who need to have a tablesaw and can’t afford a saw in that price range, they are left with “un-safe” saws to choose from. Or at least from SawStops perspective that would be the case.

I’m all for saving fingers and avoiding other saw blade injuries, however it seems the argument for a SawStop is that their technology is the only sure way to do that. As you can see by my comments, I would like to know what the most correct view point is in deciding if SawStop is literally the only way to go, or is there currently an alternative? I sense that if I purchase a table saw that is in the same price category as one of the SawStop models, that is not a SawStop, then I’ve made the wrong choice. Also, assuming that there are better made and constructed table saws out there, would the safety factor make that aspect superfluous? I don’t have an answers to these questions, perhaps you and others do?

[Beechwood Chip]

I own a Sawstop, but I think Sawstop lost a lot of good will and hurt their reputation by (1) trying to sell the idea that all saws should use their technology, and (2) by purportedly financing suits against other saw manufacturers. I don't think the Sawstop feature is an all or nothing proposition - it's just one feature to consider, like a riving knife or granite top or really accurate fence.

As I understand it, the Sawstop brake technology requires a really strong and precise assembly to withstand the shock of the brake firing. So, you're not going to see that technology on a light-weight or inexpensive saw.

Also, I've never sawn through a staple or a nail and I don't expect too. But if you routinely cut through wood that has "surprises", then the Sawstop will not be a good idea.

I would say that if you want an inexpensive saw or a light-weight saw, then don't consider a Sawstop. If your saw blade often encounters metallic obstacles, then don't consider a Sawstop. If you want a saw in the price and weight range of the Sawstop, then consider a Sawstop, and make a decision as to how the safety feature ranks in your priorities with all the other features.

But, let's not make this a religious war. It's just a table saw. The "flesh-sensing" technology doesn't make it perfectly safe, and saws without it aren't death traps. The "flesh-sensing" just makes it safer in certain situations, at a cost of convenience and price.

[Onboard]

But, let's not make this a religious war. It's just a table saw. The "flesh-sensing" technology doesn't make it perfectly safe, and saws without it aren't death traps. The "flesh-sensing" just makes it safer in certain situations, at a cost of convenience and price.

Amen!

[wilburpan]

My question is, can anyone comment on the quality and feature set of the Unisaw compared to the SawStop WITHOUT mentioning anything about the flesh detection technology on the SawStop?

Another way of looking at your question is to turn it on its head. I have yet to read a review of the SawStop where it was thought that any aspect of its build quality was inferior to any other table saw out on the market. So if the price difference is minimal, and you are choosing between a well built tablesaw and a well built tablesaw with the addition of an incredible safety feature, why wouldn't you pick the latter option?

[Onboard]

Another way of looking at your question is to turn it on its head. I have yet to read a review of the SawStop where it was thought that any aspect of its build quality was inferior to any other table saw out on the market. So if the price difference is minimal, and you are choosing between a well built tablesaw and a well built tablesaw with the addition of an incredible safety feature, why wouldn't you pick the latter option?

I agree Wilbur. And assuming I can trust your observation that the SawStop indeed is as good as anything else out there, then your point is well taken. By the way, I’m wondering if you would read my comment (#10 – In response to Dyami) and let me know what your thoughts are. Thanks Wilbur.

[wilburpan]

I’m wondering if consumers of the SawStop are being driven by a fear factor, or is purchasing a SawStop simply the only rational thing to do. If the conclusion (wherever that may come from) is that it is irrational to buy a saw that does not have a flesh detection function, then the other saw manufacturers might as well go out of business and leave SawStop as a monopoly.

This is a loaded question. Luckily, my folks never taught me to stay away from dynamite.

Disclaimer: I don't have a table saw. My main reason is that my shop space is small enough that I had to choose between table saw and bandsaw, and I went with bandsaw. I'm very happy with that decision.

Second disclaimer: If I ever get a table saw, it's going to be a SawStop.

Having said that, there's a big problem with phrasing this question in terms of "rational" and "irrational". The problem is that it assumes that everyone considering this purchase is working off of the same information and has the same priorities. For some, safety is first and foremost in their priority list. For those people, buying a SawStop is a very rational decision.

For others, owning a table saw made by Delta (or Powermatic, or [fill in the blank]) is most important. Maybe it's because their dad had Delta machinery in his workshop, and there's a strong connection there. Maybe it's woodworking OCD and all of the machines have to match color, and you already are committed to mustard yellow. (Sound familiar? ) In these cases, buying a SawStop is not going to be in line with their priorities, and so not buying a SawStop is a completely rational decision.

For still others, the thought of supporting a company that engaged in anti-competitive activity is unthinkable, and so they would never purchase a SawStop for that reason. Now, this assertion is untrue, and if you look at the complete timeline of the course of events that led to the SawStop coming to market, if you accept that SawStop engaged in anti-competitive activity, it can be argued that all the machinery manufacturers engaged in anti-competitive activity, but from the standpoint of those who believe this, not buying a SawStop is a completely rational decision.

(By the way, I really really really don't want this thread to get hijacked by a "Is SawStop anti-competitive" discussion, so out of respect for Onboard, if you want to talk about this, please start another thread.)

I can say that I think that if safety is important to you, then SawStop is the only rational choice. And a fear factor is not necessarily an irrational reason to make a decision. I am aware that injury is a risk that is inherent to this hobby, and I am very fearful that I will do something stupid and lose the use of my hand in the name of engaging in a hobby. That's a perfectly valid reason to get a SawStop.

[Onboard]

This is a loaded question. Luckily, my folks never taught me to stay away from dynamite.

Thank you Wilbur for your “loaded” answer.

[iSawitFirst]

Choosing between the SawStop and an "equal" saw still isn't quite "equal". Most accidents are kickback related, something the detection feature does nothing for. Also, the testing and examples of the detection feature are always done with gradual motion. Jamb you hand into a spinning SawStop blade and you'll have a very different result. Also, the detection system has been criticized for activating when cutting wood with high moisture content.

False activations and their cost for downtime and replacement parts and blades are certainly a consideration. Is it really worth it? I think not. So, if a saw is considered "equal" in quality to the SawStop, I argue that it is really better.

Sorry Onboard. I get tired of the standard argument for detection as the trump card when its not.

[wilburpan]

Also, the testing and examples of the detection feature are always done with gradual motion. Jamb you hand into a spinning SawStop blade and you'll have a very different result.

This would be a good point, if it were actually true. There have been demos with the hotdog moving at speed, and he braking mechanism still works as designed. There is no reason to believe that the SawStop won't work as designed if there is a contact at speed.

Besides, the outer edge of a 10" blade is going about 100 mph (assuming that it's spinning at 3600 rpm or so, which is the max speed for most 10" table saw blades, so the difference in speed between slowly moving a hot dog into a blade and whipping it is completely swamped by the speed of the blade to start with.

You can decide whether the cost of false triggers and replacement parts is worth the added safety. That's your individual decision and priority. But don't try to make the argument with statements that aren't true.

[iSawitFirst]

This would be a good point, if it were actually true. There have been demos with the hotdog moving at speed, and he braking mechanism still works as designed. There is no reason to believe that the SawStop won't work as designed if there is a contact at speed.

Besides, the outer edge of a 10" blade is going about 100 mph (assuming that it's spinning at 3600 rpm or so, which is the max speed for most 10" table saw blades, so the difference in speed between slowly moving a hot dog into a blade and whipping it is completely swamped by the speed of the blade to start with.

You can decide whether the cost of false triggers and replacement parts is worth the added safety. That's your individual decision and priority. But don't try to make the argument with statements that aren't true.

Before you accuse me of being a fibber, the SawStop detection reacts within 3 milliseconds of being touched. This gives the blade the ability to turn a distance of 1.5 teeth. Imagine jamming the palm of your hand hard against the spinning blade and letting it turn only 1.5 teeth. Flesh will be cut, not nicked like the hotdog demo.

Notice in the SawStop demos where the inventor put his finger against the blade that he barely touched it. He knows better than to jam his hand into it.

Maybe if you had a table saw you'd have a better "feel" for this.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[wilburpan]

So let's hear from someone that hit the SawStop blade with a hotdog really fast.

Here is part of a post from CanadianWoodworking.com:

I've personally tripped the saw (with a hot dog ) three times now....two of them at slow-normal feed rates, but the last one....I rammed it through as fast as I could. The difference was a "nick" in the weiner vs. a "scratch", but it was still less than 1mm deep The saw takes something like 2/1000 of a second to activate.

( No relationship with SS whatsoever, and I don't own one...I just got to play with some out west)

Less than 1mm works out to be about 1/32".

[Mister Pants]

You do touch on an interesting point though. I have thought about posting a different sort of question in regards to the SawStop, but haven’t. However, maybe you can help me here. I’m wondering if consumers of the SawStop are being driven by a fear factor, or is purchasing a SawStop simply the only rational thing to do. If the conclusion (wherever that may come from) is that it is irrational to buy a saw that does not have a flesh detection function, then the other saw manufacturers might as well go out of business and leave SawStop as a monopoly.

I don't think its entirely run by the fear factor, though I'm sure it goes into play for some buyers. Irrespective of the safety stuff, the Sawstop is a well made saw. It's dust collection from everything I've read (and seen) is very good, its sturdy and well made, and I expect those factors in addition to the safety aspect goes into the decision of a lot of the buyers. I do think that fear does factor into their marketing somewhat, which is understandable as the safety stuff is an aspect they bring to the table that other manufacturers don't, and unfortunately it seems to be pervading into the general public (witness the Ryobi lawsuit and its IMO moronic outcome).

It is a well-made saw. From a fit and finish it's not equivalent to the new Unisaw if you were to pull the safety feature out of it, but it would still be in the upper echelon of cabinet saws.

[Onboard]

I don't think its entirely run by the fear factor, though I'm sure it goes into play for some buyers. Irrespective of the safety stuff, the Sawstop is a well made saw. It's dust collection from everything I've read (and seen) is very good, its sturdy and well made, and I expect those factors in addition to the safety aspect goes into the decision of a lot of the buyers. I do think that fear does factor into their marketing somewhat, which is understandable as the safety stuff is an aspect they bring to the table that other manufacturers don't, and unfortunately it seems to be pervading into the general public (witness the Ryobi lawsuit and its IMO moronic outcome).

It is a well-made saw. From a fit and finish it's not equivalent to the new Unisaw if you were to pull the safety feature out of it, but it would still be in the upper echelon of cabinet saws.

Thank you much Mister Pants. You, as well as a few of the other respondents, address what I was hoping to cull in the first place and that is the Unisaw quality versus the SawStop quality. Based on all of my searches I was getting the impression that SawStop was a safety feature and not a table saw (yes I know the SawStop is a table saw). As far as the fear factor I’m sure you noted that my sentence started “I’m wondering…”. I’m not making judgment calls here, but it’s just an impression. So, I take your remark about a fear factor as addressing my uncertainty.

I take the SawStop’s safety feature very seriously, and right now, I admit that I’m biased toward the SawStop. My post came from a question that formed in my mind, as I waded through search hits whose central theme was the flesh detection technology. My thought was “okay, I see the value in the safety feature and would assign a high decision weight to that feature, but what about the rest of the saw?” As simple as that.

Thanks again for you thoughtful input.

[Mister Pants]

So, I take your remark about a fear factor as addressing my uncertainty.

That and babbling

[edh]

Lots of opinions here so I'll throw mine in. I have two tablesaws, one is a cheap plastic Delta 10inch that I used to help with construction of my cabin. The other is an old Rockwell Unisaw that I bought off a cabinetmaker who was retiring so he was selling off a lot of his equipment. I really like the Unisaw and have never had an accident with it.

I've had the Unisaw for about 20yrs but I do remember the purchase day, I was excited about getting a Unisaw. A few years later while telling a friend about my good fortune in getting the saw, I remembered that the cabinetmaker had two saws. The Unisaw and a Sears Contractor saw that he said he was keeping because it was a great saw and he intended to eventually give it to his son.

Now I figure that size was probably a factor but this highly skilled cabinetmaker chose the Sears Contractor over the Unisaw to pass onto his son because in his opinion the Sears was a "great machine". I do not have the skill or knowledge of the cabinetmaker but his judgement of his machines makes me now realize that there is a lot more to a tool than just a name.

I will keep my Rockwell Unisaw and will likely never own a Sawstop. But if I ever do need to get another machine, I will be looking for overall quality rather than just one particular feature. A new Unisaw may not make the grade, who knows? Maybe a Powermatic or Jet or Gorrlla will.

[TBaiga]

I'm new to this forum and woodworking, but I've had a bit of experience with the Delta Unisaw cutting baltic birch, G10 and carbon fiber plates and tubes.

I've done a lot of reading on the various forums and reviews that discuss the Sawstop PCS. I agree that safety is one of the most important criteria, perhaps right after precision and accuracy. In my decision making process I originally leaned towards the SS. However, after more careful review of the technology I was forced to contend with the fact that eventually you'll start to see the market shift to adding these systems to existing saws. At which point SS would most likely cease making saws and just sell/license the technology. And as cabinet saws tend to be lifetime investments, a PM2000 or new Unisaw might be the most prudent investment. Regardless of the braking mechanism, I was instructed that operation of the TS required 100% attention and awareness and that only safe practices and planning your cuts before hitting the switch was allowed. In the end it's a personal choice and my logic depends on the assumption that this technology will migrate to all high end saws. If that happens then all have the same safety features and the question comes down to which saw is best.