raruss1 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 For me the main compelling reason was that I want my kids to get into woodowrking but if they cut themselves on the tablesaw and I had not done everything to prevent that, I would spend the rest of my life in regret. When I thought about it that way, it was an easy $1000 bucks out the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Went to Sawstop's site on this one, here's what they say: "Yes. You can operate the saw in Bypass Mode which deactivates the safety system’s braking feature, allowing you to cut aluminum and other known conductive materials. If you are unsure if the material you need to cut is conductive, you can make test cuts using Bypass Mode to determine if it will activate the safety system’s brake." Just in case anyone else was wondering about it... -Jim Hey Jim, You are exactly right. I've done it only a few times. A few test cuts and once I shut the system off breifly to cut some aluminum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Yeah I don't really buy that. The 0691, which I agree is a lower quality saw was ridiculous tight in the tolerances. I think the has to be a top quality saw is simply Saw Stop hype. Not saying the Saw Stop isn't a top quality saw (well personally I don't think it's on the same plane as the PM/Delta, but it sits just below the two in quality so it is up there), but that the brake costs are fairly significant. From my understanding that's specifically why the guy formed his own company after trying to shop his technology everywhere and being turned down because it was too expensive. I don't mind if people post things that are incorrect, as long as you don't mind me correcting them. I have used the new Delta, the old Delta, and the SawStop Industrial Cabinet saw many times. As you probably know by now I use the SawStop in my business. I will tell you this: The SawStop is higher quality than the new Delta. I will also say the old Delta is higher quality than the new Delta. The new Delta has some cool features and it is a great TS. (Look back at my conversation with JimB1 in this thread.) But the New Delta doesn't have the sturdy, solid as rock, feel that the old Delta or the current SawStop has. I can't comment on the Powermatic, I have only used one once, and it was a long time ago. As far as your point about "the guy formed his own company after trying to shop his technology everywhere and being turned down because it was too expensive". That is simply not a true statement. Although I am not a friend of his, I have met Steve Gass several times. When he shopped his technology to the major manufacturers of Table Saws at the IWF in Atlanta they all turned him down not because of the expense, but because of the fear of lawsuits. Every company stated that if they produce this technology, that would open a lawsuit with everyone who was ever injured using a Table Saw. This fear, be it real or imagined was the reason he was shot down. He tells the story that he was shocked, because he assumed the manufacturers would jump at the technology. But he was shoed away by the lawyers before they ever talked price. He and a two other woodworker friends started their own company. Producing their own saws. Being woodworkers, (and btw a physisist and 2 lawyers) they developed a saw with features they wanted to see on current saws. We are all better off for it. Delta redesigned the best selling table saw of all time, the UniSaw, because it was outsold for the first time in well over 40 years. Seriously, I'm not a SawStop cultist or anything. But I have used the Deltas and the SawStops and so have many of my friends. They are close in quality, but I am not being biased when I say I think the SawStop is better. (Thus it cost 300-600 more) Even the buddy of mine who owns the new Delta often offers to trade with me because he prefers my SawStop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB1 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Seriously, I'm not a SawStop cultist or anything. Come on Chet fess up, I've read maybe a dozen posts of yours not counting this thread and almost all of them mention Sawstop at least once We all have our favorite tools and it's pretty clear what yours is, nothing wrong with that so stop feeling guilty about it and wear your Sawstop hat proudly. Some of the Festool guys are the same way LOL. It's all good. -Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Come on Chet fess up, I've read maybe a dozen posts of yours not counting this thread and almost all of them mention Sawstop at least once We all have our favorite tools and it's pretty clear what yours is, nothing wrong with that so stop feeling guilty about it and wear your Sawstop hat proudly. Some of the Festool guys are the same way LOL. It's all good. -Jim Hey just because I go out every full moon wearing goat-skin pants and dance around ancient idols chanting SAWSTOP SAWSTOP SAWSTOP... doesn't make me a cultist... does it? By the way, we are looking for a new High Priest, want the job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hey just because I go out every full moon wearing goat-skin pants and dance around ancient idols chanting SAWSTOP SAWSTOP SAWSTOP... doesn't make me a cultist... does it? We keep trying to sacrifice fingers to the Sawstop, but it just doesn't work!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlamulle Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hey just because I go out every full moon wearing goat-skin pants and dance around ancient idols chanting SAWSTOP SAWSTOP SAWSTOP... doesn't make me a cultist... does it? By the way, we are looking for a new High Priest, want the job? Well, I think I just HAVE to add my 2 cents to this discussion. I happen to have a SS industrial and a Delta X5 side by side in my shop so I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt the SS is a more meaty solid saw. I moved both my saws around the shop to relocate them to their present back to back positions (see my shop photos in my other post) and when I finished the Delta table was out of alignment with the miter slots .022 front to back. The SS never moved 1 thou. All the bolts were just as tight on both saws, it's just that the Delta just isn't as well made, and when I say that I mean solid. I would have to say my SS is much closer to a PM 2000 than a Delta. When I went to the Marc Adams School in 2007 for the first time he had just upgraded all his saws to SS. I asked if he got a special deal or an endorsement, he was adamant he pics the tools that are the best, pays full price and doesn't pull punches on assessment. He says SS is better than any saw he's used and he never thought he could find a saw better than his old 66 PM. Now after I've used all three I'm in total agreement with him and Chet. I bought all Delta X5 tools for my shop in 2004 and I'm getting rid of all of them one by one. I'm hitting the gold standard and the quality shows. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB1 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well, I think I just HAVE to add my 2 cents to this discussion. I happen to have a SS industrial and a Delta X5 side by side in my shop so I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt the SS is a more meaty solid saw. I moved both my saws around the shop to relocate them to their present back to back positions (see my shop photos in my other post) and when I finished the Delta table was out of alignment with the miter slots .022 front to back. The SS never moved 1 thou. All the bolts were just as tight on both saws, it's just that the Delta just isn't as well made, and when I say that I mean solid. I would have to say my SS is much closer to a PM 2000 than a Delta. When I went to the Marc Adams School in 2007 for the first time he had just upgraded all his saws to SS. I asked if he got a special deal or an endorsement, he was adamant he pics the tools that are the best, pays full price and doesn't pull punches on assessment. He says SS is better than any saw he's used and he never thought he could find a saw better than his old 66 PM. Now after I've used all three I'm in total agreement with him and Chet. I bought all Delta X5 tools for my shop in 2004 and I'm getting rid of all of them one by one. I'm hitting the gold standard and the quality shows. Dave Get that man a pair of goat skin leggings, I think Dave just put in his application for High priest -Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlamulle Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Get that man a pair of goat skin leggings, I think Dave just put in his application for High priest -Jim Oh man, I forgot to mention I cannot run for High Priest because I'm already Arch Prelate for the Southeast district. I'm not willing to step down a notch or five yet. My leggings are actually lambs wool, much more comfy, but I get the goat skull crown with the horns. It really attracts the ladies at parties. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lms@bio.umass.edu Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I have never written a response to a blog before, but felt I needed to add a few comments about the Sawstop discussion I came across yesterday. I am a wood working hobbyist and spent a long time deciding which table saw to buy. I was obviously appreciative of the safety features that are unique to the Sawstop saw, but independent of that, I felt it was a superior table saw. There has been some discussion about “misfiring” of the brake. While it is rare, it did happen to me. I had turned on the saw and heard a small click. I thought I had tripped a breaker somewhere, but instead the brake had fired. Since it was so fast, and the saw was just starting, there was no damage to the blade. I didn’t know why this happened because I didn’t have any material touching the blade. I contacted Sawstop customer service and they suggested that I send them the expended cartridge so that they could analyze the computer chip. I figured the ultimate conclusion would be “user error”, and that would be that. Instead, they contacted me to say that it was a misfire by the saw. Not only did they replace the cartridge, they sent me an entirely new electrical system! They replaced everything except the motor. I was a loyal Sawstop fan before this incident, but I was stunned by the high quality of their customer service. They want their product to be the best and safest unit on the market, and they clearly are honest to that goal, independent of the price. Yeah, the initial cost of the saw is more than a comparable unit from another manufacturer, but this saw will last for years, meet all your wood working needs, and keep your digits in place. Pretty good deal from my perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlamulle Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I have never written a response to a blog before, but felt I needed to add a few comments about the Sawstop discussion I came across yesterday. I am a wood working hobbyist and spent a long time deciding which table saw to buy. I was obviously appreciative of the safety features that are unique to the Sawstop saw, but independent of that, I felt it was a superior table saw. There has been some discussion about “misfiring” of the brake. While it is rare, it did happen to me. I had turned on the saw and heard a small click. I thought I had tripped a breaker somewhere, but instead the brake had fired. Since it was so fast, and the saw was just starting, there was no damage to the blade. I didn’t know why this happened because I didn’t have any material touching the blade. I contacted Sawstop customer service and they suggested that I send them the expended cartridge so that they could analyze the computer chip. I figured the ultimate conclusion would be “user error”, and that would be that. Instead, they contacted me to say that it was a misfire by the saw. Not only did they replace the cartridge, they sent me an entirely new electrical system! They replaced everything except the motor. I was a loyal Sawstop fan before this incident, but I was stunned by the high quality of their customer service. They want their product to be the best and safest unit on the market, and they clearly are honest to that goal, independent of the price. Yeah, the initial cost of the saw is more than a comparable unit from another manufacturer, but this saw will last for years, meet all your wood working needs, and keep your digits in place. Pretty good deal from my perspective. I think we've found our new High Priest Chet. Prelate Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I think we've found our new High Priest Chet. Prelate Dave The only question left is should we send him Goatskin or Lambswool leggings. I like to go traditional with the Goatskin, but I know you feel the Lambswool is more comfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pants Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I have used the new Delta, the old Delta, and the SawStop Industrial Cabinet saw many times. As you probably know by now I use the SawStop in my business. I will tell you this: The SawStop is higher quality than the new Delta. I will also say the old Delta is higher quality than the new Delta. The new Delta has some cool features and it is a great TS. (Look back at my conversation with JimB1 in this thread.) But the New Delta doesn't have the sturdy, solid as rock, feel that the old Delta or the current SawStop has. I can't comment on the Powermatic, I have only used one once, and it was a long time ago. Personal opinion I'd say. I have the exact opposite experience using those saws. I found the new Delta felt much more sturdy than the SawStop Industrial. Especially the extension table side of it. I found the legs on the extension of the SawStop felt slightly more sturdy than those on the Grizzly 0691 (which is the weakest point of that saw IMO, and something I plan to fix on mine). I don't have a complaint with the Saw Stop product, but that is my impression having used both. The PM66 (I haven't used a PM2000), always struck me as a reliable brick, like you though my experience was a fairly long time ago. I don't have either saw in my shop, but having used both several times, for the same money I'd probably go for the Delta. Again though that's just personal opinion. I don't think you'd go wrong with either one. As far as your point about "the guy formed his own company after trying to shop his technology everywhere and being turned down because it was too expensive". That is simply not a true statement. Although I am not a friend of his, I have met Steve Gass several times. When he shopped his technology to the major manufacturers of Table Saws at the IWF in Atlanta they all turned him down not because of the expense, but because of the fear of lawsuits. Every company stated that if they produce this technology, that would open a lawsuit with everyone who was ever injured using a Table Saw. This fear, be it real or imagined was the reason he was shot down. He tells the story that he was shocked, because he assumed the manufacturers would jump at the technology. But he was shoed away by the lawyers before they ever talked price. Fair enough, and happy to be correct. It was just what I had heard and you know how correct the grapevine often is . Indirectly it appears the other companies were correct though about lawsuits, given the Ryobi one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I don't have either saw in my shop, but having used both several times, for the same money I'd probably go for the Delta. Again though that's just personal opinion. I don't think you'd go wrong with either one. That's what makes America great, we have choices. If you like the Delta, that's okay with me. I like the Unifence over the Biesemeyer. I like Callaway Golf balls over Titleist. I prefer the Kansas City Strip to the Sirloin. We can choose what we like. One thing I like about this forum is that there are no shortage of opinions and nearly everyone keeps an open mind. If you are ever in Central Iowa, let me know I'll invite you over and let you use my SawStop with a Unifence I'll see if I can "convert" you. ... Good debate, I've enjoyed it. Take care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pants Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 No Chet you are clearly wrong! Seriously completely agree. I'm not anti-SawStop, it just didn't strike me as the saw I'd really want in my shop (the 0691 didn't either though I like it a lot, it did however strike me as the saw I wanted in my shop with the money I had to spend on it ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 it just didn't strike me as the saw I'd really want in my shop (the 0691 didn't either though I like it a lot, it did however strike me as the saw I wanted in my shop with the money I had to spend on it ) Funny, I have a Ridgid Jointer in my shop that fits that description exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toneslinger Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 I have mixed emotions about the sawstop. First, I work for a very large mfg company where safety is beat into you 24x7 to an extreme. Imagine a place where a employee broke a fingernail cuz the flipper door on a trashcan shut on his finger so the removed all the flipper doors. At my company I feel and know I'm extremely safe. The problem is like the sawstop, you get a sense of security that isn't always there. With a sawstop I know that at some point I would get dependent upon it. I know I can probably pull off that 1/4 veneer cut against the fence and use my fingers to push it thru. Besides if I'm wrong, the sawstop will save me. That risk on the TS is minimized with the SS. But will I have a tendency to take the same risk on the bandsaw without a SS? Learned behavior. Without the SS, I am forced to stop and think about every cut before I start to understand exactly what I'm gonna do safely always knowing my fingers never touch or break the plane of the insert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 With a sawstop I know that at some point I would get dependent upon it. I know I can probably pull off that 1/4 veneer cut against the fence and use my fingers to push it thru. Besides if I'm wrong, the sawstop will save me. That hasn't happened with me on my Sawstop - if you read my resawing thread you'll see that I spent lots of thought trying to make that cut as safe as possible. The fact that I was using a Sawstop never entered my mind. Besides, who's going to think, "Besides if I'm wrong, the sawstop will chew up my blade and I'll need to buy a new blade and brake." I mean, people don't play bumper cars in parking lots thinking, "hey, if I hit someone the air bag will protect me, and I'll only have to replace the airbag and pay for some body work, maybe a new bumper. No problem!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toneslinger Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 That hasn't happened with me on my Sawstop - if you read my resawing thread you'll see that I spent lots of thought trying to make that cut as safe as possible. The fact that I was using a Sawstop never entered my mind. Besides, who's going to think, "Besides if I'm wrong, the sawstop will chew up my blade and I'll need to buy a new blade and brake." I mean, people don't play bumper cars in parking lots thinking, "hey, if I hit someone the air bag will protect me, and I'll only have to replace the airbag and pay for some body work, maybe a new bumper. No problem!" Yea Beech, I hear what you are saying and agree. You're right, any added protection and safety is a good thing. I think my line of thinking could be flawed but like I said, I have mixed emotions. There are tons of analogies out there, bumper cars, training wheels, etc. I just know people from work, myself included, are used to pausing at hallway corners to look up in the mirror to see if somebody is coming from the other direction and know they are doing the same thing. That only works at my company, cuz in the real world, not everybody does that at a mall, etc. So you tend to run into people more and/or take it for granted. To me, the tablesaw is the most DANGEROUS tool in the shop. I fear it more than anything else. I dont like using it but on the other hand, with the exception of my compound miter saw, its probably the most used tool in my shop. Nothing makes my heart race faster than having to lean over the table while pushing stock thru. In the back of my mind im always thinking, "Ok, did I get all the sawdust off the floor? cuz if I didn't and I slip, my face is going right into that blade." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 cuz in the real world, not everybody does that at a mall, etc. I agree, no one can say how everyone will react. What works for me may not work for the next guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 First off-- know that I woodwork as a hobby only logging about 15-25 hours per week in the shop. I have a Grizzly TS and love it. It works for all my ww needs. The price-to-value relationship made it an easy decision for me. I bout this Grizz TS about 8 years ago. If I had to buy a TS today, there would be NO DOUBT that I would buy the SawStop. THere is no amount of money that can replace fingers. The SawSstop offers a very high quality saw and provides a safety feature that no other TS can offer today. Although, I expect that competition is around the corner. As a side note-- I am not aligned with how SawStop approaches the marketplace. Mr. Gass (owner/pres of SS) seems to like the idea of govt intervention into the free market. He would love to have the govt dictate that SS technology be mandated by law on most all TS. This is a bad way to approach running a business and embracing a free marketplace. I suspect that SS will get a taste of competition soon. The winners should be us the consumers. The more choices, the better. Peace- Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 As a side note-- I am not aligned with how SawStop approaches the marketplace. Mr. Gass (owner/pres of SS) seems to like the idea of govt intervention into the free market. He would love to have the govt dictate that SS technology be mandated by law on most all TS. This is a bad way to approach running a business and embracing a free marketplace. I suspect that SS will get a taste of competition soon. The winners should be us the consumers. The more choices, the better. Peace- Mark I agree whole heartedly. Read my post a few comments back in this thread and you will see that you and I are on the same page. On a side note; this has been an awesome thread. Chet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 I just know people from work, myself included, are used to pausing at hallway corners to look up in the mirror to see if somebody is coming from the other direction and know they are doing the same thing. That only works at my company, cuz in the real world, not everybody does that at a mall, etc. This made me laugh! I have to share that at a company I used to work for actually put up stop signs at each hallway intersection. You could be written up if you didn't stop and look up at the round mirror. I always wondered what are they trying to prevent? Were they having an extreme number of very serious hallway collisions before they put up the stop signs? Is there a chance somebody is coming the other way in a high-speed steam roller or something. I think we had a hyper-active safety team in the HR department. Sorry for the tangent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 This made me laugh! I have to share that at a company I used to work for actually put up stop signs at each hallway intersection. You could be written up if you didn't stop and look up at the round mirror. I always wondered what are they trying to prevent? Were they having an extreme number of very serious hallway collisions before they put up the stop signs? Is there a chance somebody is coming the other way in a high-speed steam roller or something. I think we had a hyper-active safety team in the HR department. Sorry for the tangent. Talk about a hyper-active safety team! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccrory Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I decided to buy the SawStop. Deciding factors: 1. I have the money 2. Most of you guys say that the SS is one of (if not the) best TS's on the market 3. My musician son likes the idea 4. My wife says it is OK to spend $3000 on a Man-Toy, in this specific situation. :-) 5. The price of the brake is $70 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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