Is SawStop Really worth it?


emccrory

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This is a topic that rears its head before, but I'd like to be more specific.

Is a Sawstop table saw (let's use PCS175-TGP252 for comparison, $2600 plus tax and shipping) really $1000 "better" than a Grizzly table saw (model number G0691, $1539)? Their specs are very, very similar! They are both "top rated".

Of course, the primary difference is the Sawstop blade brake. Of course, one cannot put a price on one's fingers. But $1000 is a lot of money for an amateur shop!

I work approximately 10 hours per week (during the winter) in my shop, building simple furniture and doing the occasional project on the lathe.

I have some good equipment (Hitachi compound Miter box, Dewalt surface planer, Hitachi router & table, and old Delta jointer, and an old (1970's), on-its-last-legs and loud-as-hell Delta hybrid table saw).

I do not have two key pieces of equipment: Band saw and drill press. $1000 will buy a great band saw and a great drill press!

The other major consideration is that my son (22) loves woodworking and is a professional bassoonist. He lives 3 hours from home. He is forbidden (by me and by himself) from using my table saw now. If I got a Sawstop, I think we can relax that restriction. And it may get him to come home more often! :-)

I have discussed this with my wife and some of my friends at work (scientists and engineers). What insight can this august body shine on this decision????

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For a professional shop, absolutely. The savings in general liability insurance will pay for the new saw in a matter of months, even counting the occasional trashed blade and brake assembly.

For hobbyists, possibly. But only because such things can't be reduced to numbers unless, gawdfubbit, there actually is an accident. Are you the only person that ever uses your tools? Your son's music career is a powerful argument in favor of the SawStop. But I'm a professional organist by trade and I've been using a standard table saw for seven years...the only time I've hurt myself was a bone-headed mistake with a chisel.

For me, safety at the table saw is far more than a gadget: It's a mode of thinking, of double- and triple-checking everything that could or would happen before turning the tool on and then pre-visualizing the process to the point of obsession. This comes naturally to hobbyists, as simply being in the shop is its own reward and we aren't (often, at least) under the gun to get a project out the door or to keep track of billable hours.

Get the SawStop if it helps; but never forget that you and your son still bear an enormous burden of responsibility every time you turn it on.

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I'm by no means an expert, but before I bought my Sawstop I read a lot of reviews. The one that convinced me was a line up of a dozen well known table saws. The top three, if I remember correctly, were the Powermatic, the Unisaw, and the Sawstop, all coming in at around the same price. The Grizzly was "good value for the price" but definitely a lower quality saw.

As I understand it, the brake isn't really that expensive, but it can only be installed in a heavy duty saw with very close tolerances of manufacture. So, you're not paying $1000 for the brake, you're paying $1000 for a top of the line saw.

That said, my last saw was a $380 Bosch 4100 (refurb), and it worked fine. As a hobbyist, you may not need or want a $3000 table saw. You need to look at the difference in quality and features and decide for yourself. One of those features is the Sawstop brake.

The only person who can tell you if it's "worth $1000" is you. But I think it's telling that your son won't use the table saw without the brake. If he would use it with the brake, then it's $1000 so your son can use the saw.

Does your son use the miter saw or jointer? Many people consider the jointer to be more dangerous than the table saw. Marc has said (iirc) that he considers the router to be the scariest tool in the shop (or maybe that was Nicole). I'm just trying to put this in perspective.

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I will now talk out of both sides of my mouth.

I am in the process of building a shop from the ground up with a good sized budget to work with. I have researched just about every option up and down the price and brand name list. I have talked to local craftsman friends who have been doing this all their life. Almost everyone of them said that if they were to buy a saw this year they would lean strongly towards the sawstop.

With the price issue set aside for the moment. My issues are the replacement cost of the aluminum block which has come down considerably, about 80 or 90 dollars. When it fires you are most likely going to ruin the blade. There is also some more involved setup to changing blades (dados and such) of which my information is limited. The few people that I have talked to that own a sawstop have all had a misfire for various reasons, which leads me to believe there is a learning curve. Most tools have a learning curve.

Reviews and information that I have read would put the sawstop as a better built unit than the Grizzly, but I have not used them side by side.

In my personal opinion is the sawstop worth the extra money and possible frustration? YES

Will I buy a sawstop? NO (People that I will never meet will now yell at me)

My reasons are the same as yours, a thousand dollars is a lot of money especially in this economy. I can take that extra money and get a better bandsaw with cast iron wheels, larger motor, better blades and who knows what else. Will I be upset if I cut my finger off? Yes, but will be my own stupid fault now won't it, and I will deal with MY decision. Ten years from now I may change my mind and upgrade.

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You're asking a difficult question. As I read it, you're looking for reinforcement of your decision, now IS the extra $1000 worth your peace of mind? I really can't answer that question because I'd have to know your value system. Do you buy just enough or do you save and buy the best possible item. What executive decision making paradigm do you follow when buying life insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance, etc.? How prominent are safety devices and considerations to you when working in your shop? All thee things factor into your decision tree.

I do not own a table saw yet. Presently I'm saving up for one. And the SawStop is where my investment will go. Quality is up there with the other high end saws and the safety features are proven. To me a 1000 bucks is worth it over the lifetime of the saw. I wavered on this decision, but to me that was the answer in itself. If I was second guessing myself, which I never do, then for me the decision was settled. Save, wait and get the right tool. I have all my life to build a dream shop, it's a marathon not a sprint.

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Completely agree with the sentiments of TomB. Ultimately, the decision is yours, and only you know the answers to the points brought up in this thread.

That having been said, here's my take. Myself, the next large purchase for me is a replacement table saw. The one I have now is 30 years old, and is the first power tool I ever purchased. It has served me well, but I'd like something with a bit (OK, a LOT) more precision. From all I've read, the Sawstop is as well made as anything available. It is really a top of the line, precision tool. Add to that the brake system, and it's just a no-brainer for me. Sawstop is the way to go.

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The few people that I have talked to that own a sawstop have all had a misfire for various reasons, which leads me to believe there is a learning curve. Most tools have a learning curve.

I almost never say this but... you're wrong. In my life I have heard of exactly one sawstop misfire. That was when somebody's aluminum t-square hit the blade. I have had my SawStop for going on 4 years now. I have never had it misfire. I belong to a group of over 100 people with SawStops. I already mentioned the only known misfire. The only learning curve you have between the SawStop and any other table saw is that you can't let anything metal collide with the blade. Unless, of course, you turn the safety feature off. The entire time I've had my SawStop it has been fitted with the DeltaUniFence. Which as you probably know is Aluminum. I've never had a problem.

By the way, I can change from a standard brake to a dado brake in less than 5 seconds. I've timed it several times. You can switch from the riving knife to the spliter even fast than that.

Beachwood Chip said it best. The SawStop is infinitely more tablesaw than the Grizzly. Sorry!

Forget the brake, the saw is simply much higher quality.

Honestly, you should buy what ever you are comfortable with, but here are at least a dozen reasons other than the safety feature that I believe the SawStop is better than any other saw out there. (I am speaking of my SawStop Cabinet Saw with a 52" Delta Unifence.)

1 – The dust collection is incredible. It may be equaled out there, but I can’t imagine there is anything better.

2 – The onboard computer has blink codes to tell you if something is wrong with your saw and what it is. (Up to and including a blink code letting you know the cabinet door is open.) At first I was nervous about this failing and causing my saw to be useless. But, after three years (including moving the saw twice to new locations) there have been no issues. If there are, there is an over-ride feature.

3 - The SawStop comes with the best manual I have ever seen... I don't just mean the best manual for a table saw or even the best manual for a tool... NO, I mean THE BEST MANUAL I'VE EVER SEEN! Plus, the manual is spiral bond laminate paper that lays flat if you want to read it or use it... I don't know... maybe ... IN THE SHOP!

4 – If you dial their help-line, you get a dude in the US… who is actually a woodworker, I like that. No offense to anyone who prefers to get somebody in Kazakhstan who’s never even seen a sheet of plywood.

5 – Because their arbor and trunions are designed to survive a million “Stops” they are way heavier than any of the others you see on the market. Big deal right? Well, I can tell you I tuned my saw the day I got it. (It needed almost none, so mostly it was a process of confirming it was tuned.) Since then I’ve moved my workshop twice. When I set up the saw for the third time in my new shop… You guess it, still tuned. My older cabinet saw would get out of tune if I ran too many pieces of heavy maple through it. This one seems to never vary from dead on.

6 - By the way, the heavier trunions and arbor also mean that the tilt and blade raise wheels are pnematically assisted. Which means it is really easy... I mean really easy to spin them. This feature alone makes the saw super-cool to use.

7 – Did I mention the dust collection?

8 – The riving knife system when I first got it was so easy to use it almost made me sick to think why didn’t somebody come up with this before? I think a few of the newer saws out there may be equal to it today.

9 - The riving knife is also attached to the blade arbor, meaning it's hight moves with the blade and the distance from the blade is fixed.

10 – Changing the blade is stupid simple. Wrenches wait for you on the side of the machine, ready and willing to change your blade. Even switching to a dado head, which requires a different brake pack can be done in less than a minute. (I can change my brake pack in about 5 seconds… seriously, I’ve timed it.)

11 – I don’t know if other saws have this or not, but there is a lockable turn lever on the side of the machine which disconnects power from the machine. This feature prevents accidently turning the machine on if you are tuning it, or making changes or something of that nature. (May also be helpful when my son, who is now 6 months, starts exploring my shop.)

12 – Oh and by the way, the blade stops spinning if you touch it. That may one day save my hand or finger.

As you can see, I love this saw. I would not recommend buying any other. I dropped about 4 grand on mine with everything I got when I bought it and every day I use it I think it was a bargain. My wife totally supported my purchase. Because when I told her it was going to be either the SawStop at 4 grand or another saw which would be 3300 to 3600, she said it was a no brainer. As usual, she was right.

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Honestly, you should buy what ever you are comfortable with, but here are at least a dozen reasons other than the safety feature that I believe the SawStop is better than any other saw out there. (I am speaking of my SawStop Cabinet Saw with a 52" Delta Unifence.)

Just out of curiosity, why did you put a unifence on your sawstop? Didnt like the Bies clone?

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I have a Powermatic 2000 and it is a very nice saw. That being said, if I had it to do over again I would buy a Sawstop. When I bought my PM2000 the SS had just come out and was a bit of an unknown.

I've used the SS a number of times, including at a week-long woodworking course. As someone above mentioned, even *without* the blade brake, I'd say the SS is worth a $1,000 premium over the Grizzly. To me, it's a no-brainer: Buy the SS.

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Just out of curiosity, why did you put a unifence on your sawstop? Didnt like the Bies clone?

On the fence issue, it is a personal thing. A long time ago I built an old craftsman contractor saw into a shopmade cabinet and I needed a fence for it. I went with the Unifence because I liked the flexibility of sliding the fence back to do cut-offs without the possiblity of kick-back. Saves you from having to put up a false-fence. Also, since most of my work falls under the general category of cabinets, I run a lot of sheet goods. I like setting the unifence on its side to run sheet goods. It is especially helpful if you work alone, as I generally do.

But the Biesmeyer Clone that comes with the SawStop (as well as the actual Biesmeyer) is a perfectly fine fence. When I ordered my SawStop they asked me what I wanted and I ordered the Unifence, because it is very familiar, very versitle, and over the years I've found it works great for me.

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I work approximately 10 hours per week (during the winter) in my shop, building simple furniture and doing the occasional project on the lathe.

I have some good equipment (Hitachi compound Miter box, Dewalt surface planer, Hitachi router & table, and old Delta jointer, and an old (1970's), on-its-last-legs and loud-as-hell Delta hybrid table saw).

I do not have two key pieces of equipment: Band saw and drill press. $1000 will buy a great band saw and a great drill press!

My $0.02, and please keep in mind this is coming from someone who doesn't have a table saw.

1. If I had to get a table saw, I'd get the SawStop.

2. Given your last statement in the quote above and the types of projects you describe, I'd consider skipping the table saw and getting a bandsaw and drill press as you mentioned. There are ways of accomplishing what many use a table saw for with the other tools you have, but it would be very hard to do what you can do with a bandsaw if you get a table saw.

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I've checked out the Sawstop. As everyone else here has said, it's a top notch saw regardless of the brake. Personally, I think for around the same money the Delta Unisaw is better but if I got a good deal on a Sawstop, I could easily go that route. Right now I don't have cash, space or power for a saw like either of those but it would be pretty high on my list of good saws to compare if I was looking.

Now if you were asking about the contractor saw, That's a much tougher sell. It's hard to justify $1800 on a contractor saw when the Powermatic is $800 cheaper and there are some really nice alternatives for under $900. I'm pretty happy with my Rigid TS3650 and don't really see the Sawstop as a big enough upgrade to justify the price difference. Though I will say I like the riving knife on the Sawstop and would probably list that as a better reason to buy then the blade brake to me. I've been dinged by kickback more then any other issue on the saw (stupid hurts!) and the Sawstop brake doesn't help with that.

Honestly, respect for and fear of high speed blades tends to keep me aware of my hands. Remember that the blade brake might keep you from losing a finger but you could still get cutup pretty good in the millisecond before the brake locks the blade depending on exactly what the scenario is so it's just another safety feature like a splitter that doesn't negate the need to practice proper saw technique (but I'm sure we all know this already, just reiterating the safety mantra :rolleyes: ).

Just another opinion and as we all know, everybody has one ;)

-Jim

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Wow! Some strong and interesting responses here.

I picked up the Sawstop DVD from Berland's HOT. I watched it. Oy!!

My wife and I, when faced with a decision of this sort, ask ourselves this question, "If you decide to buy X instead of Y, do you think you'll regret that you didn't get Y?" This has worked well for cars, cameras and vacuum cleaners. (In each case, we opted for the more expensive, higher quality option.)

But I saw a very thoughtful response in another thread that went something like this: The people who post to this website are very serious; you are not going to get a response like, "Nah, go for the cheaper option--I did and it was the right choice because I never ended up using the pricey features anyway."

I agree that Jointers and Routers are possibly the most dangerous: I witnessed a jointer accident in high school shop--the boy lost the end of his finger. I nicked myself with a router in the 80s--scare the pooh out of me, but it was only superficial. And I almost did it again a few months ago (I had just bought a router table--the switch on the router is ON when installed and the switch on the table controls it. When I removed the router to use it freehand, I plugged it in and it started spinning while on my work table. It fell off the workbench!) But then again, we had a table saw accident in my workshop in 1990--my Dad had come up to help with a big project, and I think he lost concentration for a moment. Fortunately, it was just a nick--a bloody nick, but no bone contact.

Upon reflection, I think I would regret not getting the Sawstop. Now I just need to feel OK about spending $3000 on a ManToy. :-)

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Personally, I think for around the same money the Delta Unisaw is better

What do you like about the UniSaw, Jim?

I was all jazzed about the new UniSaw coming out when I read about it. Then when it finally arrived a buddy of mine ran out and got one and I have to say I was pretty disappointed. (He too, has confessed a great deal of buyer’s remorse.) Granted, that is a sample of just one, but I’m curious what it is that you like about it.

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For the guys that have a SS. If you have a series of blinking lights on the panel, does that disable starting the saw until the problem is fixed? Just wondering.

Roger

Yep, unless you totally over-ride the system.

However, the lights do blink for a few seconds when you first turn the saw on as it performs its checks. Once that is completed you will get a steady green.

If you continue to get blinking lights, the owners manual shows you what the blink codes mean, so you can check them out and get it corrected before firing up the saw.

Dose this help, or do you need more information?

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What do you like about the UniSaw, Jim?

I was all jazzed about the new UniSaw coming out when I read about it. Then when it finally arrived a buddy of mine ran out and got one and I have to say I was pretty disappointed. (He too, has confessed a great deal of buyer’s remorse.) Granted, that is a sample of just one, but I’m curious what it is that you like about it.

I usually hear about the bevel handwheel being moved in front as opposed to the side being a big deal. Personally, I prefer it on the side because I get down low to see the angle set to a transfer bevel gauge or protractor so the "jack-in-the-box" cranking style of the handwheel on the side is much easier than the front one. But then I don't need to change the bevel angle with each cut so maybe if I used it more, I'd have a different preference.

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What do you like about the UniSaw, Jim?

I was all jazzed about the new UniSaw coming out when I read about it. Then when it finally arrived a buddy of mine ran out and got one and I have to say I was pretty disappointed. (He too, has confessed a great deal of buyer’s remorse.) Granted, that is a sample of just one, but I’m curious what it is that you like about it.

There are a few things that I think are nice and unique to the Unisaw.

1) The extra space in front of the blade really seems to me a big plus that isn't talked about much. I think it gives a bit more stability when working on long rip cuts and I like the idea of making some nice big crosscut and panel jigs for use on it.

2) Single wrench blade changes look like a great idea after scraping my hands up doing double wrench changes for the last 5 years.

3) Front mount blade bevel crank and bevel angle gauge are pretty sweet. I'm 6'3" and pretty much have to climb under my saw to adjust the bevel now so less bending is a good idea.

4) I like the miter gauge Delta has with it. I really dislike my current miter gauge (might pickup an incra). Sawstop's gauge didn't seem as sturdy and didn't have as many detent stops.

5) Biesemeyer fence is the fence that all others are judged by. It's just rock solid and well made. (I like the Sawstop one too but pretty much it's a little less sturdy imitation of the Biesemeyer)

I went to a thing at Woodcraft (actually might have been force machinery here in NJ now that I think about it) last year and they were demoing a Unisaw and I got to really get a good look at it and play with the controls and all the bells and whistles. I checked out a Sawstop maybe 6 months ago at a different Woodcraft store. They didn't have a demo though so I didn't get to actually play with it but I was able to check out the controls and the overall proportions and fit and finish. It's nice. Really the blade brake is a secondary feature to me though and I think the Unisaw is just better at the primary functions of being a tablesaw.

I'm sure by the time i am looking for a saw at that level though, they'll both have all sorts of upgrades and I'll have to reevaluate them again... it's a tough hobby to keep up with. :lol:

-Jim

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Jim,

You make some good points. If I may comment on them:

1) The extra space in front of the blade really seems to me a big plus that isn't talked about much. I think it gives a bit more stability when working on long rip cuts and I like the idea of making some nice big crosscut and panel jigs for use on it. – You are correct. That extra space can come in handy.

2) Single wrench blade changes look like a great idea after scraping my hands up doing double wrench changes for the last 5 years. – I don’t disagree that the single wrench is better than most systems, but I actually prefer the 2 wrench system that the SawStop has. The 2 wrenches hang on the side of the machine, they are long and very sturdy. When using 2 wrenches you can push and pull more naturally than one wrench, it just feels better. If you have the opportunity to use both as I have, I think you’d agree the SawStop just feels so much more heavy duty.

3) Front mount blade bevel crank and bevel angle gauge are pretty sweet. I'm 6'3" and pretty much have to climb under my saw to adjust the bevel now so less bending is a good idea. – My buddy bought his Delta based on this feature alone. He’s a tall fellow and figured this was the greatest idea ever. As it turns out he now prefers the tilt wheel on the side. Turning the wheel sideways turns out to be tougher on his shoulder than rolling it forward. It simply doesn’t feel very natural.

4) I like the miter gauge Delta has with it. I really dislike my current miter gauge (might pickup an incra). Sawstop's gauge didn't seem as sturdy and didn't have as many detent stops. – Can’t argue with that. Get the incra.

5) Biesemeyer fence is the fence that all others are judged by. It's just rock solid and well made. (I like the Sawstop one too but pretty much it's a little less sturdy imitation of the Biesemeyer) – Wood magazine’s review of the Biesemeyer clone on the SawStop found it to be equal to the Biesemeyer. Although, I can’t comment I ordered mine with a Delta Unifence. If you order yours where I ordered mine I could choose between ordering it with the SawStop fence, the Biesemeyer, the Delta Unifence or any other fence out there.

Good discussion, Jim. I appreciate your insight.

Thanks,

Chet

The one thing I don't think the Delta can match is the incredibly solid feel and the way the SawStop just stays tuned for ever. But again, I could be wrong. Either way, good discussion. Take care.

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Thanks for the info Chet. I think as with most things, you don't really find the flaws or stuff you don't like until you really use a tool for a while. You can research these things like crazy but you just have to eventually put your money down and work with it. I'm pretty sure neither are perfect but they both seem to be quite good. Something for everyone...

BTW, can you disable the brake on the SS? I'm asking because sometimes I cut aluminum on my saw for various projects and that would be annoying if I couldn't do that any longer. Just wondering...

-Jim

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BTW, can you disable the brake on the SS? I'm asking because sometimes I cut aluminum on my saw for various projects and that would be annoying if I couldn't do that any longer. Just wondering...

Went to Sawstop's site on this one, here's what they say: "Yes. You can operate the saw in Bypass Mode which deactivates the safety system’s braking feature, allowing you to cut aluminum and other known conductive materials. If you are unsure if the material you need to cut is conductive, you can make test cuts using Bypass Mode to determine if it will activate the safety system’s brake."

Just in case anyone else was wondering about it...

-Jim

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Not going to weigh in on the whole safety thing as I consider that to be a personal opinion issue. I do however own the G0691 saw the OP mentioned. I like it a lot, it's a very good saw. It is however, not quite as high in quality as a Powermatic, Delta or even the SawStop (which is IMO lower in quality than the Powermatic/Delta. I expect Saw Stop made sacrifices in the overall saw quality to keep the price in line since the brake stuff adds a fair amount of cost).

The Grizzly is solid, and it was dead flat and in tune out of the box. However, the dust collection is a little subpar and the extension table and legs are of lower quality than the Saw Stop's (which I consider to be a weak point of the Saw Stop as well fwiw). I'm surprised the price is that close though. It sounds like Grizzly upped the price on the 0691, as I didn't pay $1500 for it, and the equivalent Saw Stop was about $3500 when I was looking, in line with the new Unisaw. Grizzly does what they do very well, making economical tools that work, but they aren't priced in the high end for a reason as well.

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As I understand it, the brake isn't really that expensive, but it can only be installed in a heavy duty saw with very close tolerances of manufacture. So, you're not paying $1000 for the brake, you're paying $1000 for a top of the line saw.

Yeah I don't really buy that. The 0691, which I agree is a lower quality saw was ridiculous tight in the tolerances. I think the has to be a top quality saw is simply Saw Stop hype. Not saying the Saw Stop isn't a top quality saw (well personally I don't think it's on the same plane as the PM/Delta, but it sits just below the two in quality so it is up there), but that the brake costs are fairly significant. From my understanding that's specifically why the guy formed his own company after trying to shop his technology everywhere and being turned down because it was too expensive.

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