SawStop inadvertent brake activation causes

[drzaius]

1 minute ago, applejackson said:

This thread is now so far off topic, I don't know- can it be shut down?

Far off topic isn't always a bad thing though.

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

2 hours ago, drzaius said:

 

Just off hand, I think you could rotate the base 180* without much trouble. The lift pedal may interfere, but it wouldn't stick out as far as the wheels do now.

Rotating won't work. The front wheels stuck out the same as the rear, and on the ideal side there is the hydraulic assembly which makes that side stick out worse.

I think I'm going to shorten the 2 bars on each side and redrill new holes to mount to the cross members. I don't want to do that but it might be the only practical solution. Take care

[Mark J]

12 hours ago, applejackson said:

This thread is now so far off topic, I don't know- can it be shut down?

Not yet, we still have to see your solution!

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

@Mark J

I am hoping to work on it this Sunday. 

Here is my plan:

Turning the saw around in the base won't work. That solution is a dead issue.

SS suggested I flip the clamps that secure the table to the rear rail bracket. 

Going to try that one first.

 

If that doesn't work, I'll probably end up cutting the 2 outermost bars to make them about 2" shorter, and drilling new holes to fasten them to the cross members.

I'll update as I go!

[JohnG]

Might be good to just remove the outer bars first to be certain that it will clear the fence once it can flip all the way down. 

As for this thread, can it be renamed? Then another thread can be made (now or later) that remains on topic. Definitely good to have this info posted and discussed, so it would be a shame to delete the thread. 

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

2 minutes ago, JohnG said:

Might be good to just remove the outer bars first to be certain that it will clear the fence once it can flip all the way down. 

 

Absolutely. That's my plan - to make sure everything is going to pan out before I start making cuts.

As To the thread, I didn't even know there was a Product Review category and in that category is a thread about this outfeed table. This one just kind of evolved from the original subject to this problem.

I'm not going to delete anything. Renaming it is a good idea, I'll look into doing that. 

Thanks for your reply

[JohnG]

18 hours ago, applejackson said:

Sawstop called me today to discuss. He explained that they don't returns of any kind because they're not a retailer.

This is a pretty lame excuse and/or bad policy. Without specifically looking for them I have read several cases, including one in this thread, of Sawstop directly replacing a brake cartridge for end users. Problem with product - sawstop accepts bad product - sawstop provides refund (in the form of a product). I think you said they wouldn’t even let you exchange it for the PCS base, which make it easy for them since they wouldn’t have to go through the hassle of issuing payment to you (which, for a large company, can be quite a hassle). 

I have worked for large, international companies that do not do any direct sales to end users, but wouldn’t hesitate to replace, repair/modify or refund a product for an end user who had an issue with it. These companies sold goods well into the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars per item, so it wasn’t just little trinkets. 

I’m also surprised that the distributor that you work for wouldn’t help you out, either with a refund or exchange of some sort. 

Unfortunately you can’t always talk sense into people!

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

2 hours ago, JohnG said:

This is a pretty lame excuse and/or bad policy. Without specifically looking for them I have read several cases, including one in this thread, of Sawstop directly replacing a brake cartridge for end users.

@John G. 

I agree and I was not super thrilled to get that as a reply. His justification was that they cannot resell the base as I have used it. 

My argument was that I am only returning it because it doesn't work with the components I ordered and SS should have warned me about this combination. 

He said that thousands have made that combination work (implication being that I am the one at fault, not the products). 

While I fully admit that it's possible that there is some operator error at play here - I really don't think that is it. I assembled these products by following their very thorough, step-by-step instructions to the letter and this is where I landed. 

Needless to say, this has really soured my opinion of their company and kind of making me wish I had gone Powermatic. Live and learn, I guess. 

Now to their credit, they did replace something that was damaged in shipping without any fuss (the inner tube of the floating dust collection piece)

And with the Cartridges, apparently if you set the brake off in a legit save situation (as in, your flesh touched it with the machine running) I have heard that they will send you a new cartridge free of charge. The cartridge collects data about why  the brake was activated and apparently they can use this to tell the legit saves from other, accidental firings of the brake) And maybe they do that under other circumstances as well. I am not sure. 

 

[Minnesota Steve]

8 hours ago, applejackson said:

Absolutely. That's my plan - to make sure everything is going to pan out before I start making cuts.

As To the thread, I didn't even know there was a Product Review category and in that category is a thread about this outfeed table. This one just kind of evolved from the original subject to this problem.

I'm not going to delete anything. Renaming it is a good idea, I'll look into doing that. 

Thanks for your reply

Yeah, add this info to the thread I started over in the product reviews forum.

I like the outfeed table, but I have the regular mobile base.   I think your idea of cutting it down and drilling new holes is workable. 

 

[Minnesota Steve]

Now back to the brake activation... Last week I bought the Rockler taper jig cause it was on sale.   Haven't tried it yet.   Then took the $20 gift card I got and bought a Freud Fusion 40T thin-kerf blade.   Haven't tried that yet either.

But before buying the taper jig I went looking for some reviews or comments others had made, and found an interesting one from some guy who said he was at the store when they were demoing it and it caused the brake to activate.

I haven't even taken mine out of the box yet to verify, but he said the jig has a piece of tape measure stuck to the end, which apparently you can use to align your work piece.   As the guy was pushing the jig through the saw he had his hand on this tape measure and as it approached the blade it closed the loop through the tape measure being near the blade.

He suspected if the guy held the jig so he wasn't touching the tape measure it likely would have been fine.

 

anyway thought that was interesting... I'll have to look and maybe that tape measure can be taken off as I don't see any point to it.

 

 

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

9 minutes ago, Minnesota Steve said:

Now back to the brake activation... Last week I bought the Rockler taper jig cause it was on sale.   Haven't tried it yet.   Then took the $20 gift card I got and bought a Freud Fusion 40T thin-kerf blade.   Haven't tried that yet either.

But before buying the taper jig I went looking for some reviews or comments others had made, and found an interesting one from some guy who said he was at the store when they were demoing it and it caused the brake to activate.

I haven't even taken mine out of the box yet to verify, but he said the jig has a piece of tape measure stuck to the end, which apparently you can use to align your work piece.   As the guy was pushing the jig through the saw he had his hand on this tape measure and as it approached the blade it closed the loop through the tape measure being near the blade.

He suspected if the guy held the jig so he wasn't touching the tape measure it likely would have been fine.

 

anyway thought that was interesting... I'll have to look and maybe that tape measure can be taken off as I don't see any point to it.

 

 

@Minnesota Steve

That is interesting. I own that same sled and as I just got the new Sawstop, I had to cut the sled to fit the new Saw. I removed the tape measure stickers but there was sill the sandpaper that is used to secure the workpiece and there was no getting around that so I put the saw into bypass mode. 

After the accidental brake firing that spawned this thread, I am now pretty paranoid about ANYTHING that is not kiln-dried, nail-free hardwood and err on the side of caution by running it through in bypass mode. I dont think I remember the code flashing to indicate that the brake would have fired when I cut through that sandpaper, but I can't swear that it did not. 

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

14 minutes ago, Minnesota Steve said:

  Then took the $20 gift card I got and bought a Freud Fusion 40T thin-kerf blade. 

 

@Minnesota Steve A word of caution - Sawstop recommends not using thin kerf blades. I think their rationale is that the thinner material may not hold up to the forces that the brake exerts when it fires. They give minimum thicknesses in the manual. I have a few thin kerf blades from my last machine and will continue to use them. It is fine with me if the safety system is only enabled for 95% of the cuts I make and not the other 5%. But I thought I would mention that to you in case you were unaware. 

[Chestnut]

2 hours ago, applejackson said:

And with the Cartridges, apparently if you set the brake off in a legit save situation (as in, your flesh touched it with the machine running) I have heard that they will send you a new cartridge free of charge. The cartridge collects data about why  the brake was activated and apparently they can use this to tell the legit saves from other, accidental firings of the brake) And maybe they do that under other circumstances as well. I am not sure. 

 

45 minutes ago, applejackson said:

After the accidental brake firing that spawned this thread, I am now pretty paranoid about ANYTHING that is not kiln-dried, nail-free hardwood and err on the side of caution by running it through in bypass mode. I dont think I remember the code flashing to indicate that the brake would have fired when I cut through that sandpaper, but I can't swear that it did not. 

This seems so wrong and backwards. It completely defeats the purpose of the saw to run it in bypass mode constantly and defeats the purpose. Their policy should be the opposite. Follow procedure make sure your not cutting wet wood or wood with objects, if it fires and you never touched the blade they replace it. If you are  careless and touch the blade that's on you not them. The saw is doing it's job then and that's the price of being careless, it's still far less than the alternative.

45 minutes ago, applejackson said:

@Minnesota Steve A word of caution - Sawstop recommends not using thin kerf blades. I think their rationale is that the thinner material may not hold up to the forces that the brake exerts when it fires. They give minimum thicknesses in the manual. I have a few thin kerf blades from my last machine and will continue to use them. It is fine with me if the safety system is only enabled for 95% of the cuts I make and not the other 5%. But I thought I would mention that to you in case you were unaware. 

So the blade breaks apart under the table still better than cut off fingers.

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

Hard to argue against anything you've said, @Chestnut.

[Minnesota Steve]

5 hours ago, applejackson said:

@Minnesota Steve

That is interesting. I own that same sled and as I just got the new Sawstop, I had to cut the sled to fit the new Saw. I removed the tape measure stickers but there was sill the sandpaper that is used to secure the workpiece and there was no getting around that so I put the saw into bypass mode. 

After the accidental brake firing that spawned this thread, I am now pretty paranoid about ANYTHING that is not kiln-dried, nail-free hardwood and err on the side of caution by running it through in bypass mode. I dont think I remember the code flashing to indicate that the brake would have fired when I cut through that sandpaper, but I can't swear that it did not. 

So that comment the guy made about him touching the tape measure bit got me wondering...

See I actually cut through a staple, not a small one... I saw sparks fly off the blade.   This was like 18 gauge staple that was in a door.   I didn't even think about it, I was ripping an old cabinet door into parts when I hit it, and apparently the mitered corners had been stapled to reinforce.

But the brake didn't go off.

So I'm curious...   It seems like it definitely has to do with sensing your body.   So wet wood would very well do it.   But would metal itself, unless you were touching it?

 

[Minnesota Steve]

5 hours ago, applejackson said:

@Minnesota Steve A word of caution - Sawstop recommends not using thin kerf blades. I think their rationale is that the thinner material may not hold up to the forces that the brake exerts when it fires. They give minimum thicknesses in the manual. I have a few thin kerf blades from my last machine and will continue to use them. It is fine with me if the safety system is only enabled for 95% of the cuts I make and not the other 5%. But I thought I would mention that to you in case you were unaware. 

I'll double check.   I did read the manual and they had minimum thickness so the wood clears the riving knife.   I haven't used it yet, I could exchange it for the full kerf one(and an extra $20).

I just only have the 1.75hp, and have found the thin kerf Diablo blade I've been using cuts easier than the full kerf that came with it.   I thought I'd get a nicer blade and just leave it on the saw all the time.   We'll see.

 

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

Well here is one of the more embarrassing posts I have ever had to write. But I need to write it. 

I took the outfeed table off this weekend. I played around with flipping the clamps that attach it to the rear fence rail. I also pulled the faces off of the fence and worked on adjusting the fence. 

I cant say exactly what changed, but when I reassembled the problem with the fence tubes being proud of the table wasn't happening any longer (I did have to remove the plastic caps that cap the end of the tubes.) 

So I probably should have waited before taking this problem onto this forum. 

The table still doesn't collapse all the way, and it never will, without making some adjustments (IE cutting some of the tubes and remounting them). I am not planning to do that as the real problem I was facing was not being able to use the saw without setting up the outfeed table. 

So, in sum, one of the many adjustments I made must have cleared the issue, and I feel foolish for having posted this issue before really making a serious run at correcting it. 

 

 

[drzaius]

6 minutes ago, applejackson said:

The table still doesn't collapse all the way, and it never will

My table doesn't fold down all the way either because it rests against the collector duct, but for me it's not an issue at all. If I made it short enough to fold flat then it would be shorter than I want.

[JohnG]

6 hours ago, applejackson said:

I feel foolish for having posted this issue before really making a serious run at correcting it. 

 

 

No need to feel foolish. This post may help someone resolve the same issue in the future. You must not be the only one, since the rep told you that they had heard similar complaints about the design in the past. Glad you got it working!

[Ron Swanson Jr.]

Thank you @JohnG - I appreciate the encouragement. I made a pretty big deal out of this - I guess I was really disappointed that a brand new and expensive tool didn't seem to work right out of the gate. I guess I will chalk it up to something to learn from and as you mentioned - hopefully someone else can benefit from this in the future. Thanks again. 

[Minnesota Steve]

On 1/10/2019 at 4:43 PM, applejackson said:

@Minnesota Steve A word of caution - Sawstop recommends not using thin kerf blades. I think their rationale is that the thinner material may not hold up to the forces that the brake exerts when it fires. They give minimum thicknesses in the manual. I have a few thin kerf blades from my last machine and will continue to use them. It is fine with me if the safety system is only enabled for 95% of the cuts I make and not the other 5%. But I thought I would mention that to you in case you were unaware. 

Found the specific entry...

https://www.sawstop.com/support/faqs/

"The SawStop safety system is designed for use with standard 10” blades with kerfs from 3/32” to 3/16”. Blades with kerfs much thinner than 3/32” should not be used because those blades might not be strong enough to withstand the force applied by the brake when it activates."

So I think I'm fine.   The Fusion 40 thin kerf is a 3/32" blade.  

 

 

[Chestnut]

6 hours ago, applejackson said:

Well here is one of the more embarrassing posts I have ever had to write. But I need to write it. 

I took the outfeed table off this weekend. I played around with flipping the clamps that attach it to the rear fence rail. I also pulled the faces off of the fence and worked on adjusting the fence. 

I cant say exactly what changed, but when I reassembled the problem with the fence tubes being proud of the table wasn't happening any longer (I did have to remove the plastic caps that cap the end of the tubes.) 

So I probably should have waited before taking this problem onto this forum. 

The table still doesn't collapse all the way, and it never will, without making some adjustments (IE cutting some of the tubes and remounting them). I am not planning to do that as the real problem I was facing was not being able to use the saw without setting up the outfeed table. 

So, in sum, one of the many adjustments I made must have cleared the issue, and I feel foolish for having posted this issue before really making a serious run at correcting it.

I was remodeling a closet and cut the cloths rod about 1/4" long. I saw my belt sander and thought "this should make quick work". Held the sander in 1 hand the rod, roughly in the center, in the other hand. As soon as the rod made contact the closet rod twisted in my hand like a baton and smoked me in the forehead. Don't worry i think we all make mistakes, what matters is what you learn from it.

For product mistakes i bought and sent back 4 motherboards as defective before i realized the hard drive was defective....

 

[Minnesota Steve]

2 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

I was remodeling a closet and cut the cloths rod about 1/4" long. I saw my belt sander and thought "this should make quick work". Held the sander in 1 hand the rod, roughly in the center, in the other hand. As soon as the rod made contact the closet rod twisted in my hand like a baton and smoked me in the forehead. Don't worry i think we all make mistakes, what matters is what you learn from it.

For product mistakes i bought and sent back 4 motherboards as defective before i realized the hard drive was defective....

 

I had a USB port stop working on a motherboard... sent it in to Intel and they came back and said I'd fried it.   Boy was I mad.

Maybe a year later, I go to sell this USB harddrive case I had on ebay.   Didn't think much of it, but the guy who bought it sent me a note saying there was a lose wire which was causing the USB connection to short out.   He said he fixed it,  but I refunded him the money anyway.

At that point I smacked myself on the forehead and said "Duh!".

 

[Mark J]

@applejackson I'm very glad this issue had a fix that didn't involve a hack saw.  And good on you for owning up to a mistake. 

Not sure what kind of a stink you might have made with SawStop customer service, but letting them know the problem has been solved would be beneficial, too.

[Tom T]

I’ve had my sawstop for about 4 years now without brake activation.  While getting ready to make a shallow kerf cut in a small board I started lowering the blade with the saw running. While lowering the blade the brake activated ruining a Forrest WW2. Has anyone seen this happen before? No wood was near the blade and neither were my fingers. I didn’t think it a problem to lower the blade an 1/8” with the saw running. Am I wrong?