I need advice on wood staining

[Toya]

Hi I am a novice and need some advice on wood I'm trying stain.

I am trying to stain oak(?) wood and the stain is a close match to the original however it is very translucent in comparison. The frame is what I stained and the middle panel is the original (see first image)

Also, I ran into another problem. I removed too much of the top layer of wood and now some patches of wood won't take the stain at all. I think I ruined the veneer. (see second image)

Any help would be appreciated.

[wtnhighlander]

Greetings, @Toya!  I suspect the difference in color between the original  panel and refinished frame is simply age and thickness, possibly type as well, of the clear coat applied after stain. Short of refinishing the center panel, you might be able to add another coat of 'varnish' with a bit of dye mixed in to achieve a more even tone.

'Varnish' being a generic term for whatever type of clear coat you are using. This is a case where experimenting on an unseen part of the project is helpful.

[gee-dub]

Color matching can be quite the exercise and I am always fascinated by folks who make it look easy.  Gel stains, tints, touch-up pens, and all sorts of things are available but at some point a re-do makes more sense.  Did you already top coat the frame? It looks quite glossy.  If it has been top coated I would probably just strip the whole door, choose a stain with a strong color component (one that will color everything equally), and refinish it as a unit.

Another thing that can come with refinishing is the effect of the removed finish.  I believe this is what you are seeing where the new stain is not penetrating if you are talking about the thin strip of light color at the top of the second pic. Here again a stain with a good coverage quality (as opposed to one that penetrates to show the natural nature of the material) can cure many ills.  I am not generally a fan of strong colorants as they hide the wood.  However, in the case of a kitchen or bath a good paint is often the best choice.

[Gary7]

Hi.

 

  I face this problem each time I do a stain-quality refinishing project.

  The wood is the issue.  In most cases two stains are required.

  Example:  Using the original panel, stiles/frames newly manufactured.  Calls for separate stain.

  One reason a 'Stain-Quality' refinishing is generally 30% up charge.

  You can violate the "Chemist/Woodworker rule" and spend undue time, rubbing, buffing, shaking, sun-burning,.. etc....to get the colors to match.  Only to learn, as the product ages, the tones change. 

  Personally I choose not to put my signature on anything other than the two stain process.  I have jobs I refinished +10 yrs ago, all the same.  The other side of that is the phone-call you don't want,.. "Uh,.. the doors are now two tone, I need this corrected" .  Bad "JU-JU" call.  ( don't get them.

 

oh the Chemist/woodworker rule:  "I'm one hell of a good woodworker,... not a chemist by any means.   "Adding a little this to that, facing east, shake a chicken at 3:21 pm,.. and wow !"  No.  Let the stain folks put it together.... focus on the wood and the overall quality. 

[Wimayo]

Our 35 year old house had those same cabinet doors and I spent many hours trying to refinish them. Very difficult to make look good with stain and clear finish. The original factory finish included lots of toners to even out the variable grain color of the natural wood and plywood panels.

First you need to chemically strip all of the old finish and stain from the wood. Sanding will only remove the finish that is on the surface and leave that which penetrated the wood. This prevents the new stain from penetrating and results in a mottled look. Also, as you are applying the chemical stripper, you need to work it into the deep pores of the wood with a stiff brush. Small stainless steel bristle "tooth brushes" work well for this. Also, once the chemical has done its work, use the same brush to remove the dissolved finish under running water. Because we can no longer get stripper with methylene chloride, this process may have to be done more than once.

After you complete the stripping process, you still may have to use a combination of stain and toner to get an even color.

In the end, You may want to consider paint.

[Toya]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:36 AM, wtnhighlander said:

Greetings, @Toya!  I suspect the difference in color between the original  panel and refinished frame is simply age and thickness, possibly type as well, of the clear coat applied after stain. Short of refinishing the center panel, you might be able to add another coat of 'varnish' with a bit of dye mixed in to achieve a more even tone.

'Varnish' being a generic term for whatever type of clear coat you are using. This is a case where experimenting on an unseen part of the project is helpful.

Yea I also think aged stain and varnish is part of the problem. Even though I can't get the exact match in color, the frame of the doors and also the drawers (drawers not pictured) actually look similar to the original in person. It's basically unnoticeable unless you are really looking for something wrong. However when it comes to the middle panel it just doesn't look the same as the frame. I even tried darker stains and but it wont get darker, plus the white patches (the over sanded veneer) just stays white. 

I purchased some varnish like you said and will try it out tomorrow. Thank you for your help.

[Toya]

On 5/30/2023 at 7:50 AM, gee-dub said:

Color matching can be quite the exercise and I am always fascinated by folks who make it look easy.  Gel stains, tints, touch-up pens, and all sorts of things are available but at some point a re-do makes more sense.  Did you already top coat the frame? It looks quite glossy.  If it has been top coated I would probably just strip the whole door, choose a stain with a strong color component (one that will color everything equally), and refinish it as a unit.

Another thing that can come with refinishing is the effect of the removed finish.  I believe this is what you are seeing where the new stain is not penetrating if you are talking about the thin strip of light color at the top of the second pic. Here again a stain with a good coverage quality (as opposed to one that penetrates to show the natural nature of the material) can cure many ills.  I am not generally a fan of strong colorants as they hide the wood.  However, in the case of a kitchen or bath a good paint is often the best choice.

I am new to staining wood but I got lucky with the last few wood projects, even getting a near exact color match but this one has me stumped. I am not sure why the middle panel isn't taking the stain. Someone was telling me that maybe it's not the same type of wood as the frame.

Thankfully I haven't top coated yet. Even though the drawers are looking good, I didn't want to move on in case I couldn't fix the door I ruined. When you say "stain with good coverage quality" do mean something like Minwax solid color stain? If so, I was considering that or paint as a cover up solution if all else fails.

Thanks for your reply.

[Toya]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:43 AM, Gary7 said:

Hi.

  I face this problem each time I do a stain-quality refinishing project.

  The wood is the issue.  In most cases two stains are required.

  Example:  Using the original panel, stiles/frames newly manufactured.  Calls for separate stain.

  One reason a 'Stain-Quality' refinishing is generally 30% up charge.

  You can violate the "Chemist/Woodworker rule" and spend undue time, rubbing, buffing, shaking, sun-burning,.. etc....to get the colors to match.  Only to learn, as the product ages, the tones change. 

  Personally I choose not to put my signature on anything other than the two stain process.  I have jobs I refinished +10 yrs ago, all the same.  The other side of that is the phone-call you don't want,.. "Uh,.. the doors are now two tone, I need this corrected" .  Bad "JU-JU" call.  ( don't get them.

oh the Chemist/woodworker rule:  "I'm one hell of a good woodworker,... not a chemist by any means.   "Adding a little this to that, facing east, shake a chicken at 3:21 pm,.. and wow !"  No.  Let the stain folks put it together.... focus on the wood and the overall quality. 

I am glad that you say the wood is the issue. I was almost in tears yesterday because I thought it was all my fault but now I am realizing the small over sanded areas were the only thing I ruined. 

Thanks for the reply.

[Toya]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:43 AM, Wimayo said:

Our 35 year old house had those same cabinet doors and I spent many hours trying to refinish them. Very difficult to make look good with stain and clear finish. The original factory finish included lots of toners to even out the variable grain color of the natural wood and plywood panels.

First you need to chemically strip all of the old finish and stain from the wood. Sanding will only remove the finish that is on the surface and leave that which penetrated the wood. This prevents the new stain from penetrating and results in a mottled look. Also, as you are applying the chemical stripper, you need to work it into the deep pores of the wood with a stiff brush. Small stainless steel bristle "tooth brushes" work well for this. Also, once the chemical has done its work, use the same brush to remove the dissolved finish under running water. Because we can no longer get stripper with methylene chloride, this process may have to be done more than once.

After you complete the stripping process, you still may have to use a combination of stain and toner to get an even color.

In the end, You may want to consider paint.

Okay, so I probably would have had this issue regardless? Even though it's frustrating that I would be unable to get the more opaque color I wanted without toner, I am a bit relieved that it's not entirely my fault.

Thank you for your reply.

[gee-dub]

On 5/30/2023 at 8:54 PM, Toya said:

Okay, so I probably would have had this issue regardless? Even though it's frustrating that I would be unable to get the more opaque color I wanted without toner, I am a bit relieved that it's not entirely my fault.

Thank you for your reply.

Not your fault in my opinion.  Previous finishes can leave behind effects that telegraph into the new finish.  This can hold true even when stripped or sanded.

On 5/30/2023 at 8:38 PM, Toya said:

I am new to staining wood but I got lucky with the last few wood projects, even getting a near exact color match but this one has me stumped. I am not sure why the middle panel isn't taking the stain. Someone was telling me that maybe it's not the same type of wood as the frame.

Thankfully I haven't top coated yet. Even though the drawers are looking good, I didn't want to move on in case I couldn't fix the door I ruined. When you say "stain with good coverage quality" do mean something like Minwax solid color stain? If so, I was considering that or paint as a cover up solution if all else fails.

Thanks for your reply.

Correct.  Sometimes those of us who are not really good at refinishing (that would be me) can be better served by using a "cover up" coloration when refinishing. For example, here is a faux cherry finish that gives a certain look while hiding any irregularities in the material.

IMHO, this is about as good as paint since it completely hides the characteristics of the base material.  I can understand you wanting to keep the oak look you have.  I like oak too.  At the risk of saying something unpopular, oak cabinets in kitchens and baths is pretty dated.  That being said, that "dated" look is sometimes exactly what I am after for aesthetic reasons.

I do not have any experience with the Minwax product you mention.  I did check their website and the "full coverage" effect is indeed what I am talking about.  The color would have to be darker or bolder than what you are now trying for.  That may not be an option for your purposes.  If you can be happy taking your sort of 'golden oak' a shade or two darker to something like their 'weathered oak' or darker I would think that would equal out your color differences.  As always, test your finish choice on a test board so you know what you are going to get before you take after your "keeper".

 

[Toya]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:43 AM, gee-dub said:

Not your fault in my opinion.  Previous finishes can leave behind effects that telegraph into the new finish.  This can hold true even when stripped or sanded.

Correct.  Sometimes those of us who are not really good at refinishing (that would be me) can be better served by using a "cover up" coloration when refinishing. For example, here is a faux cherry finish that gives a certain look while hiding any irregularities in the material.

IMHO, this is about as good as paint since it completely hides the characteristics of the base material.  I can understand you wanting to keep the oak look you have.  I like oak too.  At the risk of saying something unpopular, oak cabinets in kitchens and baths is pretty dated.  That being said, that "dated" look is sometimes exactly what I am after for aesthetic reasons.

I do not have any experience with the Minwax product you mention.  I did check their website and the "full coverage" effect is indeed what I am talking about.  The color would have to be darker or bolder than what you are now trying for.  That may not be an option for your purposes.  If you can be happy taking your sort of 'golden oak' a shade or two darker to something like their 'weathered oak' or darker I would think that would equal out your color differences.  As always, test your finish choice on a test board so you know what you are going to get before you take after your "keeper".

 

Thank you so much for the information! I've never been so frustrated with a wood project as much as this one. If I could I would just paint it but I am doing this for someone who is pretty understanding since I am novice, however they want to keep the oak look. I think I will go with the minwax and try to replicated the look on the ruined panel. Will try out a darker color as you suggest and test it beforehand.

Also as an alternative, what is your opinion on using something like Band-it Red Oak Iron-on Veneer Edging as another solution?

[Wimayo]

I also like oak. However, even when starting with fresh unfinished wood, I have trouble getting it even. The dark softer grain absorbs more color that the harder grain and it always ends up looking like a zebra to me.

Try using a gel stain. It stays more on the surface than penetrating stains and you can make the color more even. Also, you can make a toner using shellac with a colorant mixed in. A thin coat of this will further even out the color. This works best using a small sprayer. An air brush with a large tip will work OK. Don't apply too much of this as it will turn muddy looking.

[Toya]

On 5/31/2023 at 3:04 PM, Wimayo said:

I also like oak. However, even when starting with fresh unfinished wood, I have trouble getting it even. The dark softer grain absorbs more color that the harder grain and it always ends up looking like a zebra to me.

Try using a gel stain. It stays more on the surface than penetrating stains and you can make the color more even. Also, you can make a toner using shellac with a colorant mixed in. A thin coat of this will further even out the color. This works best using a small sprayer. An air brush with a large tip will work OK. Don't apply too much of this as it will turn muddy looking.

I tried gel yesterday it looked a little better. Today tried amber shellac with some stain mixed in (not sure if this is what you mean) but didn't seem to alter it much. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

[gee-dub]

On 5/31/2023 at 2:15 PM, Toya said:

Also as an alternative, what is your opinion on using something like Band-it Red Oak Iron-on Veneer Edging as another solution?

I honestly am not trying to shoot down your ideas .  Veneering can come with its own set of problems.  Possibly even more true when combining solid and veneered surfaces on the same piece.  One thing the novice veneer user can run into is irregular finish absorption. This happens when the finish penetrates the thin veneer, hits the glue layer and telegraphs a blotchy pattern to the surface.

There are certainly ways to overcome this but the hazard remains a possibility.  The problem of differing materials accepting a penetrating finish also still remains after veneering and you already have that issue.  I would be tempted to play with the stain matching idea before I added another variable.  You can always go to the veneer idea later.

[Wimayo]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:35 PM, Toya said:

I tried gel yesterday it looked a little better. Today tried amber shellac with some stain mixed in (not sure if this is what you mean) but didn't seem to alter it much. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

You can add a second coat of gel stain after the first dries. It will darken it a bit, but maybe not as much as you would like.

Oil based stain is not the best colorant for shellac. Transtint or some other alcohol soluble dye would be better.

[Toya]

On 6/1/2023 at 6:27 AM, gee-dub said:

I honestly am not trying to shoot down your ideas .  Veneering can come with its own set of problems.  Possibly even more true when combining solid and veneered surfaces on the same piece.  One thing the novice veneer user can run into is irregular finish absorption. This happens when the finish penetrates the thin veneer, hits the glue layer and telegraphs a blotchy pattern to the surface.

There are certainly ways to overcome this but the hazard remains a possibility.  The problem of differing materials accepting a penetrating finish also still remains after veneering and you already have that issue.  I would be tempted to play with the stain matching idea before I added another variable.  You can always go to the veneer idea later.

Don't worry I don't feel like you're shooting down my ideas. I am learning and welcome any suggestions. I appreciate your help.

[Toya]

@gee-dub I meant to update awhile ago that your idea worked. I found an opaque stain but it wasn't the color I wanted, however, it looks much better than it did. In my client's bathroom, it's difficult to see the difference unless you are looking for something wrong. It even looks better in person than on camera. Thanks for your help!

Also, thank you @Wimayo @Gary7 @wtnhighlander for your help!

In the images below, the panel I ruined is the door on the far right.

 

[woodywoodpecker]

Yes alot of time the center panel is a different wood. Take a scrap piece of wood, sand different sections with different grits, stain, and see what happens. Pre-stains and top coats change the color. Different species of wood will all look different with the same stain. Off course a replacement piece of new wood with new stain will stick out. 4 white walls in a room painted a year ago, re-paint one wall white and it will stick out, what shade of white, matte, gloss, acrilic, brand, primer, ECT