Is Plywood Really Evil?


agab6601

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Happy Haloween to everyone! A little early of course, but I would like some in put on this as I feel it

warrants some discussion. In the context of furniture making is plywood really evil? What I mean by this statement is, is it posible to build high quality furniture and use plywood? When I say plywood I am talking about cabinet grade plywood with cherry, maple, etc veneer on it, not construction grade building materail stuff. For example I want to build a chest of drawers and I am thinking about using it on the sides instead of solid wood and also in the drawer bottoms. Now the stuff I use in the drawer bottoms will not be same as the plywood used on the outside of the carcass (I hope I am using my terminology right). But some folks' toe nails curl when you talk about plywood for funiture.

To add another angle, to the non woodworker, would they even notice or care? Most folks do not know what a mortise and tennon is or half blind dove tails, so as long as it looks good, right? I am quite sure there are many furniture snobs out there that would turn up their nose at plywood, but when you get down to it wood is d*#@ expensive and it is not getting any cheaper! Not to mention all solid wood peices are extremely heavy. So I welcome all sorts of feed back on this even from maybe any professionals out there would do build furniture for folks.

-Andy

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Happy Halloween to you too Andy!

In my experience, there will always be snobs out there who will tell you that using plywood isn't fine woodworking. Those are the same people who will tell you that you need powermatic and festool tools to make quality furniture. But the fact of the matter is a quality plywood can look as good and work better than hardwood, especially where wood movement is of concern. I never thought of it being lighter, but depending on the substrate it could be. (mdf veneered plywood probably isn't lighter)

Now, if you're selling furniture it really depends on the expectations of the client. If you're building for you, I would use quality plywood anywhere that makes sense and have no regrets about it. This isn't the 1700s anymore. We're allowed to use the tools and materials that work best for us and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

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I just want to hear everyone's say on this, I am very new to wood working so I have not had a lot of expirence with solid wood or plywood. Handyman I am refering to plywood that is not mdf, mdf is a ball buster as far as I am concerned I (my wife) bought some crappy furniture for my daughter and is is painted mdf and it is so heavy! and ugly but my shop and my skill level are not to the point where I can build that type of furniture, however it does provide me with the motivation that some day I will and turn the mdf crap into a bon fire.

Also anyone who builds furniture for $$$ I do not know one does it in using all solid wood, but I really appreciate the responses so far!

-Andy

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I'm one of the guys TheOneHandedHandyMan would label a snob I think, thought I don't have any Festool or Powermatic tools. :D

Let me start off by saying you can absolutely make very beautiful and long lived furniture with good plywood.

In my opinion top tier furniture, should not have plywood, or other modern shortcuts like biscuits, dowels, pocket hole screws etc in it. By top tier I mean Sam Maloof, & James Krenov type pieces. to me the top tier stuff is more about the craft and the process than it it about the finished product.

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I'm one of the guys TheOneHandedHandyMan would label a snob I think, thought I don't have any Festool or Powermatic tools. :D

Let me start off by saying you can absolutely make very beautiful and long lived furniture with good plywood.

In my opinion top tier furniture, should not have plywood, or other modern shortcuts like biscuits, dowels, pocket hole screws etc in it. By top tier I mean Sam Maloof, & James Krenov type pieces. to me the top tier stuff is more about the craft and the process than it it about the finished product.

I can respect that. Fancy joinery proves how good you are at your craft. As you stated, quality furniture and show room art can be different things.

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i dont like plywood in the stuff i build but its a personal choice i fault no one in their choice. i enjoy the building and ply to me isn't that much fun. i try not to use it anywhere when i can but i do often have to use it in secondary places like drawer bottoms. now i have found some neat modern forms out of entirely plywood where they used the layers as a design feature.

Dan i will disagree with two points; one Krenov used dowels in some of his pieces from what I understand even writing about them in his book, and two dowels aren't a modern joinery invention they have been around for sometime. but other than that you are spot on.

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Dan i will disagree with two points; one Krenov used dowels in some of his pieces from what I understand even writing about them in his book, and two dowels aren't a modern joinery invention they have been around for sometime. but other than that you are spot on.

By dowels, I'm referring to these horrible things.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2503

I've got no problem with true dowels, in many cases they are aesthetically pleasing, I've also got no problem with dowels when they are the only joinery option. What toasts my buns, is when people use them as a crutch, for example lining up panels for a glue up.

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Andy, I like curves and I also like contemporary furniture. That being said, the use of plywood will always depend. Sometimes it is the very best choice (see One Handed's comments on movement). I also like that you can veneer it with a high quality wood and not be sacrificing a very expensive and rare commodity. If the design is good and the craftmanship is good, the piece is good, whether it's made of solid or ply wood.

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Andy, I like curves and I also like contemporary furniture. That being said, the use of plywood will always depend. Sometimes it is the very best choice (see One Handed's comments on movement). I also like that you can veneer it with a high quality wood and not be sacrificing a very expensive and rare commodity. If the design is good and the craftmanship is good, the piece is good, whether it's made of solid or ply wood.

Is Vic's picture blurry, or does he always look like that? :P Also, I agree wholeheartedly with Vic on this subject - except on the curve thing and the contemporary furniture thing. :lol:

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I think it comes down the item...

If it's some sort of antique reproduction, then yes... plywood or MDF is an absolute no-no. The item should be designed to incorporate the movement of solid wood, and stick to the constraints of the original.

On the other hand, a lot of modern artistic furniture would not be possible without composites, and lots of folks believe that an 18th century craftsperson would have used whatever was available, based on the merits of the material.

So, like everything else in woodworking, including tools, it comes down to personal choices. goals, and the specific circumstances of the item in question.

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By dowels, I'm referring to these horrible things.

http://www.rockler.c...t.cfm?page=2503

I've got no problem with true dowels, in many cases they are aesthetically pleasing, I've also got no problem with dowels when they are the only joinery option. What toasts my buns, is when people use them as a crutch, for example lining up panels for a glue up.

im too lazy to use anything for lining up a panel with dowels biscuits etc. I get your meaning now.

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Dan i will disagree with two points; one Krenov used dowels in some of his pieces from what I understand even writing about them in his book, and two dowels aren't a modern joinery invention they have been around for sometime. but other than that you are spot on.

And Maloof used them for panel glue up and in gluing up his chair / rocker seats. Biscuits and dominos are just a hand held modern replacement for the manual horizontal boring machines used in the past.

Don

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IMO, anything particle core is crap, including plywood and MDF. Quality veneer core plywood is fine in it's correct application. If I'm making flat panel doors I'll glue the plywood in, making the frame considerably stronger, same goes for drawer bottoms. I refuse to edge band, so anything with an exposed edge is solids. I also take the time to plan out my cuts, I centre the veneer patterns rather than just start ripping from one of the sheets edges. I think it looks terrible when the veneer match is shifted.

Considering they pulled plywood out of the pyramids I don't think the non-traditional argument works.

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Ok, that's an intersting topic, because when I am reading stuff here or on the english speaking woowdworker blogosphere in general, I am constantly under the impression we are not working in the same area. But we are supposed to. So I am intrigued.

I wonder how many of the people I read here and there are proffessional, because based on what I see here and there, it seems you are all constantly making dovetails in beautifull wallnut... and nothing else! So, firstly, I am very jealous. And secondly, I think it is hard to believe the EU and US furniture market are SO different. Don't you have IKEA to compete with? (Ok i know we are not realy competing with them, but they are there as an alternate choice for costumers)

So, all this to say, I know a bunch of proffessional woodworker here in Beglium, and nobody sells furniture made with real wood. NO-BO-DY! Because it is simply far too expensive, that's all. The only things we still do with real wood out here are: timber frame, windows (sometimes), doors (sometimes), stairs, and some parts of very high end furniture (the kind that cost 6000 € or more for a 6 by 6 foot cabinet). Our every day job is not even to cut plywood, no, it is to cut MDF or chipboard. I mean that's something like 90% of our job. And we are happy when the customer has enough taste and money to pay for a veneered MDF ou chipboard. That's all.

So what? Is it so different for you guys? Or you are like us accross the ocean. You cut MDF during the day, and work with some real wood at nigth for yourself?

(Actualy it ha become a kind of "joke" in my shop. When somebody is working with wood, it smells (wood and not MDF) so we all come to see, asking: "hoooo you're working with wood? You're such a carpenter!")

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Ho and one more thing. About the edge band that is supposed to peel off after two year... That's just not true. Edge band glued with a proffessional machine stick there for many years, certainly not two or three.

I am not saying that chipboard furniture with glued edge are the finest of the woodworking craft, realy not, but we must not exagerate. IF I had the choice I would only work with plain wood. But Those furniture are not piece of sh*t neither. They are made to stay there for 20, maybe 30 years (depending of the used panel type, the assembly, ...), and they will if they are correctly build and taken care of. It is clearly not the same than an traditionnal plain oak chest that can last for centuries, but it will not fall in dust after two year.

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About the edge band that is supposed to peel off after two year... That's just not true. Edge band glued with a proffessional machine stick there for many years, certainly not two or three.

I know - that's why the stuff that peels off after a couple of years is evil. (well, poor quality at least).

If you guys are all working with MDF or chip-board, how do you compete with Ikea? They do MDF or chip-board much cheaper than we can.

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this one is easy. We compete because we do exactly what the customer want in term of color, finsih, whatever, and we made it the rigth size to fit the place where it is suposed to go.

that's all. If the customer is not too picky on the finsih, and do not care to have a dressing room which is not an exact match to the size of is wall, he goes to IKEA.

And Ikea and their competitor work only with chipboard with melamine, we can offer melamine, laminate or veneer with much more choice.

About the use of wood, maybe I've exagerated. I do not say that there is NO market for wooden furniture in Europe. I just say it is a tiny fraction of the customized furniture market. It is only for a small fraction of the population who:

1) can afford it

2) care to pay for it

So Even when you work for millionaires, you end up using a lot of chipboard most of the time.

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I guess it also depends of which european country you're talking about. for example talking about building carpentry there is an huge difference between france and belgium. There is a real market for restauration of old wood structure in France. There are a lot of skilled carpenter there specialised in this field. In belgium there is no market for this. there are some restauration lead by the public sector here and then, but the rare carpenter who are specialised in wood structure work mainly on timber frame.

Then there is also the market of antiquities which is realy depressed in regard of wooden furnitures (the fashion is for modern interior). And so there are some "ebeniste" (that's a kind of carpenter in french which will work on old solid wood furniture, almost only in restauration) who work on this market. But I spoke with one of them, on old one who is very introduced in the "nobility circles" and working a lot for the Belgian royal family, and he told me himself that his field his completly depressed. He has work to do because he is a Count and has done this for 30 years, but he thinks that young carpenter should not try to work in his field, or at least no only there.

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Ok, that's an intersting topic, because when I am reading stuff here or on the english speaking woowdworker blogosphere in general, I am constantly under the impression we are not working in the same area. But we are supposed to. So I am intrigued.

I wonder how many of the people I read here and there are proffessional, because based on what I see here and there, it seems you are all constantly making dovetails in beautifull wallnut... and nothing else! So, firstly, I am very jealous. And secondly, I think it is hard to believe the EU and US furniture market are SO different. Don't you have IKEA to compete with? (Ok i know we are not realy competing with them, but they are there as an alternate choice for costumers)

I make a decent living woodworking and can say 90% of my work is plywood case work with solids for face frames and doors. I will say we are moving the direction of the EU and Festool is making a bunch of folks see how easy the EU style cabinet making can be. Currently we dont have the great inventory of melamine's or veneer over mdf that the EU does. Heck we have to special order black melamine if we wanted it and pay twice the price of white. If we want a sheet of say walnut veneered mdf we have to make it ourselves and by the time were done solid would have been cheaper. We cant compete with ikea. The people that want ikea cant pay our prices anyways, which is one reason there are very few small shops left. We all love working with solids but the jobs are getting fewer and farther between. Doing a set of custom end tables and coffee table for a client is a great little project but it in no way pays the bills, it keeps the sanity and adds a change of pace.

Hobbyist like to look at the Maloof and many of the other great woodworkers idealize the way they worked. The folks that are left that have the same sort of skill level make their livings teaching and consulting the woodwork is just a hobby.

Don

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Keep in mind that a lot of the people in this forum are hobbyists. We work in whatever we want to!

I didn't mean to offend. I guess what I meant to get at is the only people that can afford to be a "hardwood elitist type" is a hobbyist. A hobby is an expense but when it comes to people that make a living with wood they cant afford do be stuck on hardwoods, not in today's economy the mortgage payment still has to be made whether its with plywood , mdf or particle board.

Don

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