TITANIUMSYNDICATE Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hello, I am thinking of stepping up from my cheep Stanley squares to some Starrett combo squares. Can anyone tell me how there grad system works? I look at them online and I see that some are 4R Grad and some are 16R Grad. Just curious what this means. Any help would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 You won't be sorry! Starrett measuring tools are a joy to hold and use. 4R is the deal for woodworking, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64 graduations. Here is 4R vs. 16R. 16R includes 50ths and 100ths of an inch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kep1019 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 +1 on the move up to the Starrett. I cant tell you how much confidence it brings knowing you have a perfect measuring device both square and marking wise... When I moved up like you I wondered and would recommend they be the first and only square to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Woodguy Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Glad I saw this: was in the market for a good combination square myself as all I had was a Stanley. Which is 'okay', but I've found myself questioning the accuracy on it (and suspecting it causing some slight goofery on my work) and I would like something with a flatter / thicker edge. Was looking at stuff at Rockler but looked cheap, I may have seen this at Woodcraft once. Glad to see it has metric as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 I have Brown and Sharp set and a Matutoyo Set something to think about when shopping around. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlawyer Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I have a few Mitutoyo calpiers, mics, and gauges... excellent, but spendy. I would take a look at Lee Valley's precision square, it's top notch: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44279&cat=1,42936 Also woodpecker's gear is excellent and has a bit more usefulness than the starrett rules and squares. Starrett's are very nice, but if you're in the market to buy something in that price range, there are other products out there that are better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikepdarr Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Like Barry said, you will not regret it. I was a little apprehensive in spending the $80 for a measuring device. It is almost worth the money to just hold it one time. Once you make your first mark you will understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I have a really nice combo square by General that has an engraved blade and a cast/machined head. I also have a Starrett protractor head square and the quality on both is very good. I use a magnifier visor headband to be accurate with the 1/64th scale. A marking knife is a must for marking wood at that sort of accuracy. After having them for several years I invested in a Starrett 24' blade which has been a great layout tool to have. Nice for marking those longer than 10 inch lines . It gets a lot of use as a straightedge as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagel Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 This thread has me rethinking my current combo square set, which, like wdwerker, is a General 6" and 12". I've checked both against an engineers try square and they're very close to being dead on. I knew they wouldn't be perfect when I bought them but was shooting for close enough. So what would you guys/gals say was "close enough" for woodworking? Against my engineers square, I can just barely see light coming through in a few spots along the edge of the 12" and the 6" is off by less than 1/32nd. Would you find either one of these unacceptable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Im not a 100% convinced all the nice squares are really all that important. Im sure there are many cheaper ones that are dead on. I have $500 worth of expensive squares and a $10 empire from home depot that is dead on. I took my 246 to hd and every empire on their shelf was dead on. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brtech Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Yes, it's worth it to have a quality square. It's not just the accuracy, it's the smoothness of the action, and the stability of the parts when you stress them a bit. A used Starrett is a way to get a Starrett at a reasonable price. A little time and sniping at eBay will get you a good one cheaply. I think a 12" combo should be within a 128th let alone a 64th. It's not a couple of thou, but it's less than you can easily measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Yes, it's worth it to have a quality square. It's not just the accuracy, it's the smoothness of the action, and the stability of the parts when you stress them a bit. A used Starrett is a way to get a Starrett at a reasonable price. A little time and sniping at eBay will get you a good one cheaply. I think a 12" combo should be within a 128th let alone a 64th. It's not a couple of thou, but it's less than you can easily measure. Depends on what you actually use a squre for. For me I set up my tools maybe check a joint but really thats about it. For the hand tool folks I would think you would need to be able to draw lines very accurately, so a good set would be a must. For the power tool guys once a machine is set up the square just sits in a drawer. I cant remember the last time I even used a pencil in my shop for something other than taking notes. 123 and 246 blocks are the way to go for machine setup and are far more accurate than even the nicest of machinest squares and easier to use. If you drop it its not destroyed and you can just leave them laying around without fear of damage.I guess a guy just needs to decide why he even needs a square and go from there. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmac Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 For the power tool guys once a machine is set up the square just sits in a drawer. I cant remember the last time I even used a pencil in my shop for something other than taking notes. Man, I gotta wonder what sort of woodworking you do. Is it mostly making cabinets quickly and efficiently like you have mentioned a few times? -- Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagel Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Don and brtech, thanks for the feedback. I am a handtool guy, so I'm glad you mentioned that, Don. I'm pretty confident my 12" square is close enough to dead on that I'm not going to worry about it. I am concerned about the 6" however. It's off by a little less than a 32nd as far as I can tell. I just bought a 4" Starrett 13B as my entry into Starrett land. It should arrive next week and I'll let y'all know my reactions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 FWIW, many squares are plenty accurate for woodworking. The reason why I like Starrett, B&S, etc... is the way they feel in my hand, how nicely the blade lock works with one finger, how easy the surface finish is on my eyes, how the graduations are extremely clear and easy to see in all kinds of light, the corrosion resistance and durability of the materials they're made of, and the interchangability and availability of parts. For example, for my 12" square, I have a 12", 18", and 24" blade, as well as a protractor head and center finder. All three blades interchange with with all three heads, and you can mount more than one head on a blade. My most used setup and marking tool in my shop is probably my 6" combo square. The only item purchased new was the 24" blade. I also have a bunch of Woodpecker stuff, ruler stops, rulers, a small square. and some triangle squares. All are well made and often do one or two things really well. I think the Woodpecker ruler stops are the best stops I've ever seen. But the proof in the pudding is that I seem to reach for either the 6" or 12" combo first most often in general use. Also, aluminum does not play well with marking knives. There are LOTS of used machinists tools available out there, and it's really easy to check them for accuracy and proper operation, so keep the eyes peeled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighthearted Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I stepped up to the 4" starrett about 6 months ago and really liked it, and felt the results. Then Just recently at a woodworking class I was able to compare my HD 12" to a 12" starrett and I was stunned. Mine was definitely not square. I saved the pennies and got one. Yes I really notice the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Man, I gotta wonder what sort of woodworking you do. Is it mostly making cabinets quickly and efficiently like you have mentioned a few times? -- Russ I dont use hand tools thats for sure. I also rely on my equipment. I use my equipment how it was intended to be used. There is no need to mark every cut in a project or for the most part any cut. All complimetarty cuts should all be done with the same setup so that every part is identical. Woodworking 101. For example four table legs. You wouldnt cut one leg to length, change your setup to taper it then go back and do the same with the other legs. If you work in this sort of disorganized manner you better be good at measuring. It doesnt matter if its complicated furniture project or a simple kitchen cabinet the method is the same. Were not making jet engines, if all your table legs are long by 1/16" it doesnt matter as long as they are all the same (complimentary pieces). Same goes for kitchen cabinets if every stile in the kitchen upper cabinet set is 1/16" to short who cares, all the complimentary pieces are the same. It doesnt matter if your cutting mortices and tenons or just cross cutting, it all works the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmac Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I dont use hand tools thats for sure. I also rely on my equipment. I use my equipment how it was intended to be used. There is no need to mark every cut in a project or for the most part any cut. All complimetarty cuts should all be done with the same setup so that every part is identical. Woodworking 101. Okay, I see .. it's kind of a mindset thing that maybe doesn't apply to the folks who took Traditional Woodworking 101 instead of Power Tool Woodworking 101 like you did. I actually like your approach, but have had trouble with it myself because I couldn't rely on my equipment. '70s vintage RAS, etc. You get the idea. Happily, I've upgraded some of my stuff since, so the equipment itself is not so much an issue any more. The other problem I have sometimes is one of messing up a part and having to start back at square one because I didn't mill any extra material. When that happens, measuring and such is very important so the replacement part matches all the others that are "off by 1/16 but who cares". Now you care! On my next project I'll try to remember this discussion and see how it works for me. -- Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Okay, I see .. it's kind of a mindset thing that maybe doesn't apply to the folks who took Traditional Woodworking 101 instead of Power Tool Woodworking 101 like you did. I actually like your approach, but have had trouble with it myself because I couldn't rely on my equipment. '70s vintage RAS, etc. You get the idea. Happily, I've upgraded some of my stuff since, so the equipment itself is not so much an issue any more. The other problem I have sometimes is one of messing up a part and having to start back at square one because I didn't mill any extra material. When that happens, measuring and such is very important so the replacement part matches all the others that are "off by 1/16 but who cares". Now you care! On my next project I'll try to remember this discussion and see how it works for me. -- Russ Milling and method is sort of off the topic but I do have a hard time recommending expensive measuring devices knowing mine just sit in a draw. $500 worth of expensive squares collecting dust is hard to recomend to other folks that may find themselves in the same position. I'll be happy to discus milling and method further when a thread is posted. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagel Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Just wanted to report that I received my Starrett 13B 4" square today, and yeah that's one fine piece of workmanship. The weight and tactile feel are significantly different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TITANIUMSYNDICATE Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Wow, Thanks for all of the advise everybody. I got a lot to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
over40pirate Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I enjoy using a hi quality combo square. The smoothness is the nice part for me. My other combo squares are accurate, but not nearly as smooth. I am using a Lufkin combo square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoFF Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I just splurged on a 12" Starrett and got the metric on one side, standard on the other - I sometimes use metric. The model was 11MEH-300 and was a special order. I havent used one but it feels and adjust like royalty. I'm actually afraid to use it a little in case it gets hurt. If I drop it I'll probably cry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaborn7795 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I bought the pinnacle combo square from woodcraft. Good the 12" and 24" with for about $80. I really like it...ganite I've never owed a starrett so I don't a frame of reference to compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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