Very basic question from a newbie

[BKeys]

I'm sure I am way over analyzing and over thinking all of the finishing options out there.  A very simple thought hit my head that may really clear things up for me.  Correct me if I'm wrong and please get me on the right track as well.  It finally struck me that the differences in the different finishes is more in their properties and what applications they are intended for than their appearances?  I mean...color gets taken care of by stain; and the different finish options all have satin, semi gloss and gloss options.  The difference between polyurethane and say shellac may be more in the hardness of the outer coat and these differences..hardness, flexibility drives the choice of finishes more than appearance? Now I realize that even if I have finally grasped this concept that what I just stated is not entirely correct that there will be some appearance differences between finishes but over all did I finally grasp a proper concept or should I continue to stand in the finish isle staring at all of the options with absolutely no clue then saying...screw it..Poly again?

[bob493]

This is not as simple a question as you'd think.

 

- The majority of wood workers use oils and polyurethanes for their ease.

- There are many many many many ways to color wood. Dyes and stains have many subgroups. You can also tint clear coats. You can wax color into wood. Cerrusing, painting, and other things can color wood.

- some finishes are much more difficult to use, and limited in options (i.e. you need a spray rig to apply some)

- some finishes are quite nasty to yourself and the environment. In my findings, the toxicity is directly proportional to how awesome a finish it is lol. Catalyzed urethanes/polyester resins are literally liquid cancer. They are foul, stink, stick to EVERYTHING, but have a finish thats really unmatched by lesser finishes. Polyurethane tends to look like plastic and hazy when you build up coats (if youre going for gloss that is), but 2k finishes are like a liquid glass poured over the wood. Please note, this is not always a desired effect, so many avoid using it. Its also stupid expensive.

 

To summarize, the choice of finish is based on ease of use, desired aesthetics, cost, and willingness of extra work. Oils are stupid easy, and provide a nice, rich finish that goes great with everything. Polyurethane is cheap, easy to apply, and in general, looks pretty good when done properly and not built up too thick. Its an easy "Go-to" finish for most wood working situations.

 

Im gonna get yelled at, but shellac isn't the best of final clear coats. Its brittle and flakes pretty easily, even when applied properly. French polishing looks amazing, but so do other options that are far less time consuming. Shellac is the best sealer for most applications tho.

[Ronn W]

From another relative beginner:  I have found it useful to play around with different methods of application.  Sometimes I want a smooth finish where you cannot feel the grain but sometimes I want the texture in the finished surfaces.  So try applying varnish (or other product) with both a rag and a brush.  Try thin coats and heavier coats.  Try boiled linseed oil or mix it with varnish.  Experiment.  One product that easy to use and apply is General Finishes Arm-R Seal.  Looks great whether applied by foam brush or wiped on depending on how thick you want the finish.  I also like General finishes High performance water base polyurethane.

One great learning tool for multiple step or multiple coat finishes is to make a finish board say 5" x 12". Sand the entire board just like you would for your project.  Cover 1" of the board at one end with tape and then apply the first coat or stain or whatever your first step is over the rest of the board.  Then cover the next 1" of the board next to the first piece of tape and apply a 2nd coat. Then tape again etc.  This will give you a visual record of what each step in the process looks like.  Label each step on the back of the board and you have a permanent record for future reference.  I am getting in the habit of doing this for any project where I am using a stain, tint or finish method that that I haven't used before so that I can see what it will look like before I work on the actual project.

Have fun.

 

[BKeys]

There just seems to be a mind numbing amount of choices.  For the most part, I've refinished hardwood floors and then what other small woodworking projects I've done, I stuck to what I know...polyurethane.  I did; however, just put a table top together for my workbench and went with...stain then Danish oil then a couple of coats of wax...it came out wonderful and I understand what you mean by feel of the surface.  Only thing is that I went with Danish oil because that seemed to be what kept coming up when googling the subject not because I have any real understanding of why.  That's not to say that I didn't / don't understand that a polyurethane surface is not what I want on a workbench.  There are just so many other options...boiled linseed oil, tung oil, varnish etc etc and I really have no idea what the difference truly is and why to pick one over another in any given circumstance.

[Brendon_t]

I went down the rabbit hole at one point and threw my hands up. It was just too much for me to want to care about.  Sealers, barriers, topcoat,  multi stage finished..ugh  I decided I needed 3 options. 

Interior light duty

Interior heavy duty

Exterior. 

One aside is that I started using a single coat of dewaxed shellac under everything.  Being that it's a universal binder, it would ward off anything on the surface from mucking up my finish. 

Finish doesn't have to be complicated. I'm still learning with dyes and tinting but I know that no matter what I do with my colors,  my finish of choice will be fine. 

Take a step back,  reaffirm to yourself that it doesn't have to be as complicated as it CAN be,  and you'll feel better. 

[..Kev]

Loaded question indeed!

For starters, why stain wood?  Why not just use the type of wood that you like for a project rather than stain it to look like that?  Paint is a totally different issue.

Next up is the amount of protection needed.  In the case of your bench, it needs very little "protection" as it's going to take a beating anyway.  You're just looking for something to keep glue from sticking and that is easily repairable so, and oil finish should work just fine..  I used Tried and True on mine and am happy so far.  A kitchen table is a totally different animal!  And then if you want to consider UV protection or out door use, it goes a whole nother direction!  Think Epifanes.

As for the looks, you also have to consider lacquer.  They build a thicker film that creates a different look.  They also scratch easier.

In the Poly realm, you have oil based stuff which tends to add a bit more of the wood's color along with a little protection - Arm-R-Seal comes to mind here.  Then you have the water borne versions which tend to not discolor the natural color of the wood but building up a thick film leads to that "plastic like" look.

Something else to consider, do you have the ability to spray or do you need to brush/wipe on?

There's just way too many factors to consider when deciding what finish to use.  You'll will not just have one "go to" finish for every project! 

It's best to think about finishing based on the piece you're building and its intended use.  Finishing is not a "one size fits all" based on matte, satin, or gloss finish.

[bob493]

Why stain wood? because reasons. remember, appeal is both a matter of taste and subjectivity. Some prefer the look of stained/dyed woods.

 

[Eric.]

Guitars are a different animal, Bob.  I don't know about you but I don't want any blue furniture in my house.

Finishing is complicated because we make it that way.  It's a balancing act between natural appearance (oils) and protection (full strength polyurethane or bar-top epoxy) on the extreme ends of the spectrum...with everything else in between like oil/varnish blends, diluted varnishes, water-based options, lacquers and shellacs...which means we have tons of options, which means...complications.

The key is to find one or two finishing schedules (taking a page out of Trip's vocabulary book)...and perfecting them.  Over the years I've settled into a comfort zone with Arm-R-Seal satin on about 90% of what I build, and the remaining 10% - mostly decorative pieces - gets a couple coats of Tried & True linseed and beeswax.  The latter is stupid easy and requires almost no learning curve.  The ARS is almost as easy but does take some trial and error to perfect.  But I've gotten it as close to perfect as humanly possible.  I've also started playing with different finishes for turnings, but that's kind of a different animal much like Bob's blue guitar.  Certain finishes on turnings don't translate to the furniture world.

On the flip side, I've boxed myself in because I reach for those cans instinctively, which means I've stopped experimenting.  Learning to proficiently spray lacquers and waterbornes, as well as going down the tung oil wormhole are both on my woodworking bucket list.  But until I have the time and desire to pursue these experiments, I know I can fall back on my ol' reliable finishing methods.

So my advice...pick one versatile finish that you like the looks of but offers some protection, practice it until you've perfected it, then try other things.  ARS just happens to strike that perfect balance - IMO - between appearance and protection, and it's easy to apply as a bonus.

[Guest]

I enjoy experimenting with different finishes.    I use Arm R Seal, Shellac, solvent lacquer and water base all regularly (and probably in that order).   personally I think shellac, when perfectly applied, is the most attractive of all finishes but it is not very forgiving.   

If you just want one "go-to" finish then Arm R Seal is your friend.  if you enjoy experimenting then I would suggest you buy a copy of Understanding Wood Finishes by Bob Flexner.   

[rodger.]

yes, flexners book will be a great resource now and for years to come.

i keep it relatively simple. here are some basic tips:

1) no fininsh can hide poor prep work. ensure that you sand, scrape, plane until the piece is ready for finish.

2) if poosible, choose marerials that are the colour you desire. far better to clear coat walnut than to stain something else to try and get walnut

3) always make test boards - always.

 

for an actual finish, i have two "go to" finishes. i use minwax wipe on poly (i like it better than ARS), and i love to spray general finishes high performace poly.

if i need to add colour, i normally go with general finishes water based dye or water based dye stains. i much prefer dye over traditional wipe on stains. i find dye to provide more consistent results, and it can be easily combined with other dyes to get other colours.

[toddclippinger]

11 hours ago, Brendon_t said:

I went down the rabbit hole at one point and threw my hands up. It was just too much for me to want to care about.  Sealers, barriers, topcoat,  multi stage finished..ugh  I decided I needed 3 options. 

Interior light duty

Interior heavy duty

Exterior. 

I like the way Brendon has boiled it down. I share pretty much his point of view and I keep it simple. 

 

[AceHoleInOne]

Can I ask you a question?  Do you have a project you're working on now and need an answer what you should use or do you want to try something new just for the sake of something new? You don't like how long oils take to dry................?

 

I do agree, you are thinking correctly of your thought process.

 

-Ace-  

 

[BKeys]

Lol...my brain started to melt a bit but you guys are bringing it back around for me.  As for why would you stain...well for me I'm just starting the woodworking thing and everything I have done prior was more construction related.  Refinishing hardwood floors....I have red oak floors...they are what they are and I'm not ripping them up to put new down. My wife wants them to be dark...so out comes the stain.  As far as woodworking..lol so far I don't consider myself good enough to butcher really nice wood so I don't go splurge on walnut no matter whether I want that look or not.  Eventually I will and at that point I can't think of a more valid point than that.  My workbench, again I wanted a dark red/brown look but also wanted a surface I could ding and not want to hang myself...so I went with construction grade pine 2x12.  I already had one guy poo poo my bench saying I should scrap the idea of a vice and build a better table...it is flat, it is solid and it has many uses from workbench to assembly to out feed. But stain gave me the look I was after without the cost.  As for what got me thinking...well the bench top started it and I have at least 3 tables stuffed in the barn by my wife that she wants refinished and I would like out of my shop so time to learn finishing....I don't think the sand, stain, Poly plan will cut it on these!

[Brendon_t]

5 minutes ago, BKeys said:

  I already had one guy poo poo my bench saying I should scrap the idea of a vice and build a better table...it is flat, it is solid and it has many uses from workbench to assembly to out feed.

As long as it works for you, then screw them (as long as the poo pooer wanst me)  * )

 

Glad you got some perspective.  Mind melting not needed but it sure is fun someone. 

[BKeys]

Great info and input from everybody. I got more from those few posts than all of the googling I did.