Madkrafter Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 To your original question about the back - I build cabinets with a 1/4" back recessed 1/4" and a 3/4" nailer strip on the top and bottom with pocket screws. The 1/4" gap in the back is in case there is a bow in the wall. A flush back will wobble. A recessed back will sit tight to the sides. Just shim the gap when you anchor to the wall. I just built some garage cabinets using this technique and had some not-so-flat walls to mount them to. The 1/4" relief kept the sides tight to the walls. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bienlein Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Watch this video as this is how I was taught by my father almost 40 years ago. The only difference is I do mine on the table saw with a 1/4" dado blade like is shown in my previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Alan, That is very similar to the way Norm Abram does it with biscuits hence that is the way I was going to do it but wanted to seek some outside input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bienlein Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Alan, That is very similar to the way Norm Abram does it with biscuits hence that is the way I was going to do it but wanted to seek some outside input. There are thousands of ways to build these cabinets and just about any way you pic will be correct. At work we cut ours on the komo cnc. All dado's are 1/4" deep for anything that's 3/4" thick and the backs are installed in a 3/8" deep dado 3/4" from the back for the uppers. They are glued and nailed together with 15 ga. nails and the face frames are attached with pocket screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 That's an interesting set of videos. I will have to take it under consideration. I was going to build all the cabinets separately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Alan, That is very similar to the way Norm Abram does it with biscuits hence that is the way I was going to do it but wanted to seek some outside input. I dont subscribe to the 1/4" dado method as AWI has not considered it acceptable construction for many years. The Somerfeld thing has been beat to death by the cabinet industry. Go over to you tube and do a search for Kris Reynolds custom cabinets. He uses pocket holes for his face frames but the young man knows how to build a box. Just watch his video series I think its 8 videos or so. For the DIY hobby shop the only thing I would change would be dado face frames but if you dont feel comfortable doing that then just throw some biscuits in your bottom rail and pocket hole the stiles as Kris does in his video. I think Kris uses confirmats Zip-r's or spax are a fine replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Kris's vids are real good. He is one of the only people i feel have a proper cabinet video. PB that being said.. Kris makes his frames and doors first ( clear that is the consensus ) here. he then attached them with pocket screws and glue. If they were dado'd would anything in his process change? Would you build out the cabinet from the frame first? For example lay the frame face down then glue + screw the sides into the dado'd frame, add the bottom and top then attach the back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bienlein Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I dont subscribe to the 1/4" dado method as AWI has not considered it acceptable construction for many years. The Somerfeld thing has been beat to death by the cabinet industry. Go over to you tube and do a search for Kris Reynolds custom cabinets. He uses pocket holes for his face frames but the young man knows how to build a box. Just watch his video series I think its 8 videos or so. For the DIY hobby shop the only thing I would change would be dado face frames but if you dont feel comfortable doing that then just throw some biscuits in your bottom rail and pocket hole the stiles as Kris does in his video. I think Kris uses confirmats Zip-r's or spax are a fine replacement.You might not subscribe to 1/4" dado but I have yet to see it fail. I watched a couple.of the Kris Reynolds videos and he sure does slot of extra steps that aren't needed. We get all of our face frame stock and door rail and stock pre milled the widths we want. All we need to do is cross cut the face frame stock, pocket screw, assemble and run the completed frame thru the sander. As for the door stock that gets run thru the shaper to put the needed profile on it then everything gets cut to length. The rails are then coped. The door panels are glued up and then run thru the surface planer, then the sander, sized and then thru the shaper for the needed profile. Pockets screws and some glue are all that's needed to attach the face frames if that us how you want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 PB: I ordered the AWI standards for cabinets curious to see what kind of interesting things I find in that guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 PB: I ordered the AWI standards for cabinets curious to see what kind of interesting things I find in that guy. You didn't need to order it. You can get it in pdf online by section just search google but its not well written. The best information comes from being a member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgreenb Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Wow, great thread. I'm not building kitchen cabinets anytime soon, but I know it will be in my future eventually. I've bookmarked this thread for when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Those videos are good and his cabinets look awesome, I'd love to find a guy that would do a natural cherry cabinet in my area with a hand rubbed oil finish (I know $$$$). I am sure they are out there but most of the custom cabinets I see are heavily colored, even if they are going for a natural look. Like anything on youtube, the best part is reading the comments. You have the usual safety police and arm chair cabinet makers. Lots of people telling him he can't possibly be making any money doing all that work (he just says "thanks man I do just fine"). My favorite is below. I had a student send me a link to the first series he put up asking my opinion wanting to know if I thought a guy could make a good living doing cabinets that way. My opinion is yes as long as you do the leg work to get the sales. But I would change the face frame to let in / dadoed. The reason is very simple. The cabinet business is a tough business and personally I would not want to live off 40 to 50k a year so in order to make more money you need to get into the new construction market. HUD / Ansi is very clear on this requirement. Its such a simple thing and as long as you can get your finish levels high enough the new construction market is yours for the taking. Being able to put an ansi sticker in your cabinets means you survive longer and fatter if you do it right. Guys want to believe its just a matter of putting boxes together and you can do it the way grandpa or some youtube dude does and your a cabinet maker. Building cabinets is all about making money. The best cabinet makers dont even know how to use a table saw. They went out and got the education and learned how to play the game in a heavily regulated marketplace. They continue that education through organizations like AWI and KCMA to make the needed changes as they come. Not that any of this has anything to do with hobby folks building cabinet. There are reasons some methods are approved and others are not. Most of it is to protect the consumer. Its a shame that only time anyone really only care is when its new construction or a public project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bienlein Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I had a student send me a link to the first series he put up asking my opinion wanting to know if I thought a guy could make a good living doing cabinets that way. My opinion is yes as long as you do the leg work to get the sales. But I would change the face frame to let in / dadoed. The reason is very simple. The cabinet business is a tough business and personally I would not want to live off 40 to 50k a year so in order to make more money you need to get into the new construction market. HUD / Ansi is very clear on this requirement. Its such a simple thing and as long as you can get your finish levels high enough the new construction market is yours for the taking. Being able to put an ansi sticker in your cabinets means you survive longer and fatter if you do it right. Guys want to believe its just a matter of putting boxes together and you can do it the way grandpa or some youtube dude does and your a cabinet maker. Building cabinets is all about making money. The best cabinet makers dont even know how to use a table saw. They went out and got the education and learned how to play the game in a heavily regulated marketplace. They continue that education through organizations like AWI and KCMA to make the needed changes as they come. Not that any of this has anything to do with hobby folks building cabinet. There are reasons some methods are approved and others are not. Most of it is to protect the consumer. Its a shame that only time anyone really only care is when its new construction or a public project. Haven't seen that required in new construction down here in Texas and we do a lot of new construction. If you want to make money at it you need to have a system in place that gets the cabinets built with as few steps/ setups as possible and automated as much as possible. Every piece of sheet good is cut on the cnc. Every thing that needs edgeing is run thru the edge bander. All face frames are cut from stock that is delivered to us already s4s and to the dimensions we requested. All thats required is to cut to size on the jump saw with the tigerstop. Doors are done the same way. All rail and stile material is profiled in long lengths that are delivered to us s4s and to the width and thickness we specify. They are then also cross cut to length on the jump saw and then coped on another shaper. Door assembly takes about 2 minutes a door. Cabinets are nailed and glued together and face frames held on with glue and pocket screws. They aren't going anywhere done like that. Finshed ends are taken care of with 5 pc panels similar to the doors or 1/4" plywood in the same species as the face frames and put on with contact cement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Haven't seen that required in new construction down here in Texas and we do a lot of new construction. If you want to make money at it you need to have a system in place that gets the cabinets built with as few steps/ setups as possible and automated as much as possible. Every piece of sheet good is cut on the cnc. Every thing that needs edgeing is run thru the edge bander. All face frames are cut from stock that is delivered to us already s4s and to the dimensions we requested. All thats required is to cut to size on the jump saw with the tigerstop. Doors are done the same way. All rail and stile material is profiled in long lengths that are delivered to us s4s and to the width and thickness we specify. They are then also cross cut to length on the jump saw and then coped on another shaper. Door assembly takes about 2 minutes a door. Cabinets are nailed and glued together and face frames held on with glue and pocket screws. They aren't going anywhere done like that. Finshed ends are taken care of with 5 pc panels similar to the doors or 1/4" plywood in the same species as the face frames and put on with contact cement. It has nothing to do with Texas or any other state for that matter. Its HUD every new home must pass HUD to be FHA or VA to be financed. To pass HUD the cabinets must meet their standards and Ansi just like an electrical panel or any other purchased finished product used in the new home. This is why onsite builds are not allowed the cabinets must be finished completely. The inspector is looking for the ANSI or KCMA label in the cabinets if they are KCMA they have to be ANSI. If you've spent any time in the cabinet industry you are aware of how often shops get shut down for using KCMA or ANSI without lab testing. You dont "need" to automate any process, you need work that pays. You need to be efficient but you also need customers that are willing to pay a fair price for a quality product. If you need to cut corners or mass produce you need better customers. I have work for the next 2 years and three months with a single contract and work almost exclusively for a single developer building on average 120 high end homes per year. It takes two shops mine and my son in laws and feeds two families with almost six figure incomes with a total of five employees all making over twenty four bucks an hour plus benefits. This is two very small shops with no automation what so ever with exception of a dovetail machine. CNC machines are nothing more than a replacement for people and skilled labor. I can go out tomorrow and buy a nice Thermwood processor fire everyone and hire twice as many unskilled workers to shoot nails. All I've accomplish is giving a worthless job to somebody that still can't afford to put a nice roof over their head and remain below poverty level or I can keep the folks I have and pay them a good living wage to make a good product we can all be proud of. If your working for a cabinet shop and not making between fifty five and sixty grand a year slinging plywood take a look at that CNC thats the real skilled labor. Im in no way saying break out the hand planes but you defiantly dont need a CNC to make money. I do agree you need to buy ripsaw lumber thats different than s4s. That being said unless your buying s4s in serious volume it will never pay off unless your labor force is just that unskilled. Shops that can afford big CNC's can afford their own ripsaw and carpet planer and most that have skilled labor do. You can cut your material cost by more than thirty five percent percent so there is no reason to buy s4s other than your labor force. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bienlein Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 It has nothing to do with Texas or any other state for that matter. Its HUD every new home must pass HUD to be FHA or VA to be financed. To pass HUD the cabinets must meet their standards and Ansi just like an electrical panel or any other purchased finished product used in the new home. This is why onsite builds are not allowed the cabinets must be finished completely. The inspector is looking for the ANSI or KCMA label in the cabinets if they are KCMA they have to be ANSI. If you've spent any time in the cabinet industry you are aware of how often shops get shut down for using KCMA or ANSI without lab testing. You dont "need" to automate any process, you need work that pays. You need to be efficient but you also need customers that are willing to pay a fair price for a quality product. If you need to cut corners or mass produce you need better customers. I have work for the next 2 years and three months with a single contract and work almost exclusively for a single developer building on average 120 high end homes per year. It takes two shops mine and my son in laws and feeds two families with almost six figure incomes with a total of five employees all making over twenty four bucks an hour plus benefits. This is two very small shops with no automation what so ever with exception of a dovetail machine. CNC machines are nothing more than a replacement for people and skilled labor. I can go out tomorrow and buy a nice Thermwood processor fire everyone and hire twice as many unskilled workers to shoot nails. All I've accomplish is giving a worthless job to somebody that still can't afford to put a nice roof over their head and remain below poverty level or I can keep the folks I have and pay them a good living wage to make a good product we can all be proud of. If your working for a cabinet shop and not making between fifty five and sixty grand a year slinging plywood take a look at that CNC thats the real skilled labor. Im in no way saying break out the hand planes but you defiantly dont need a CNC to make money. I do agree you need to buy ripsaw lumber thats different than s4s. That being said unless your buying s4s in serious volume it will never pay off unless your labor force is just that unskilled. Shops that can afford big CNC's can afford their own ripsaw and carpet planer and most that have skilled labor do. You can cut your material cost by more than thirty five percent percent so there is no reason to buy s4s other than your labor force. I've worked in the cabinet industry all but 3 working years of my life and I've been working since I was 13. My father worked all his life in the cabinet industry for the same employer since 1947. I think I have a little experience in this field. I have never ever seen where it was required to have certified cabinets for new homes or never ever heard of a shop shut down for that reason. Ever. I've worked in cabinet shops in Baltimore where I was born and raised along with shops in Texas when I moved here in 1998. 95% of the people down here don't even care how it's built as long as they are getting the look that they are after and it functions like it was designed to function. That fact in itself really shocked me! As for the back log of work thru one builder I'm happy for you but I hope nothing ever happens to change that or that your more diversified than that as I've seen quite a few shops go under because they where only building for one client and when something happened to that client they closed up shop if they didn't have the capitol to float them till they found other work. As for the cnc being nothing more than a replacement for skilled labor well thats just bull. If the guy operating that cnc isn't on the ball and paying attention to whats going on you can loose a lot of money in materials that are cut wrong. Now about the s4s. While your busy ripping boards and running them on a jointer and thru a planer I'm cutting and assembling face frames and doors. If it wasn't cheaper to do it this way this owner wouldn't be doing it like that and yes I've worked in shops where we did everything from rough lumber and it's no comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 I digress do some research its black and white and we are getting a bit to far off the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Before we get carried away here let me state a couple of things, 1. Im not in the cabinet business currently. 2. I have a medium size well equipped shop. 3. my ultimate goal is to build the very best cabinets for my home. 4. I'm an entrepreneur if i am good at building cabinets... Who knows where ill go? I spent a good part of my life as a draftsman so I am old school in certain ways. I know about standards and Im trying to find them for cabinets. Do my cabinets need to wwf, ase, itil, ufc certified.. No.. However part of wood working is being proud of what you are building. I dont want shit cabinets on my walls. Im 100% positive I can slap some cabinets together and they will do but if there are some tips and tricks that will make them rock solid i want to know! So far Ive learned about some different organizations that have standards, i know what ziprs are, i know to work from the face frame out..what else.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Before we get carried away here let me state a couple of things, 1. Im not in the cabinet business currently. 2. I have a medium size well equipped shop. 3. my ultimate goal is to build the very best cabinets for my home. 4. I'm an entrepreneur if i am good at building cabinets... Who knows where ill go? I spent a good part of my life as a draftsman so I am old school in certain ways. I know about standards and Im trying to find them for cabinets. Do my cabinets need to wwf, ase, itil, ufc certified.. No.. However part of wood working is being proud of what you are building. I dont want shit cabinets on my walls. Im 100% positive I can slap some cabinets together and they will do but if there are some tips and tricks that will make them rock solid i want to know! So far Ive learned about some different organizations that have standards, i know what ziprs are, i know to work from the face frame out..what else.. If you watch Kiris's first video series and add dados to the face frames you will have a cabinet that by far exceeds all standards with no cut corners it's just that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 About a year ago I went through his vids and made a list of everything he did. It was over 3 pages of notes! The only thing I didn't like were the pocket screws. I've use them quite a bit and I've turned other wood workers onto them with great success. However.. when I get done trying to hide them and filling them with plugs I feel like my furniture looks cheap. As i've gotten more and more particular they seem to move around a lot when you are trying to screw the darn things together. I've bought all the clamps etc they offer but I still get movement. I assume it's because the hole on the matting piece isn't pre-drilled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Do you mind sharing the screw brand? Lower quality thread cuts are more apt to move on clamped entry. Your dissatisfaction with pocketed screws might partially be cared for with a different screw selection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 The reason your board shift can be summed up into one word Kreg. For years before my shop burned I had a castle. I got impatient and needed to get back to work so I bought a kreg machine and have to add it to my bad decisions list. The hole is cut at the wrong angle and the pilot is to small. I've learned to live with the machine using the clamps with keyhole plates that force the frame to your surface. They work better than clamping on both sides of your frame. The bottom line is you will have to experiment but keyhole clamps work better but kreg holes suck no matter what you do. One more year and my machine is depreciated and it's gone and will be replaced with a castle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 The reason your board shift can be summed up into one word Kreg. For years before my shop burned I had a castle. I got impatient and needed to get back to work so I bought a kreg machine and have to add it to my bad decisions list. The hole is cut at the wrong angle and the pilot is to small. I've learned to live with the machine using the clamps with keyhole plates that force the frame to your surface. They work better than clamping on both sides of your frame. The bottom line is you will have to experiment but keyhole clamps work better but kreg holes suck no matter what you do. One more year and my machine is depreciated and it's gone and will be replaced with a castle. I looked thgh their website, and was hoping to find a hand held model, but no luck! Have y ever tried the porter cable model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 I looked thgh their website, and was hoping to find a hand held model, but no luck! Have y ever tried the porter cable model?If your talking about the old version that was used on New Yankee a Workshop. Yes it's not really a PC its a castle licensed to PC. Castle still offers that model the only difference is they recently changed the pilot hole router to a Bosch since PC discontinued the one they were using. If your talking about the jig that you use a drill with no I have no use for a jig it drills at the same angle as the Kreg anyways just fancier. I need a machine for speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 About a year ago I went through his vids and made a list of everything he did. It was over 3 pages of notes! The only thing I didn't like were the pocket screws. I've use them quite a bit and I've turned other wood workers onto them with great success. However.. when I get done trying to hide them and filling them with plugs I feel like my furniture looks cheap. As i've gotten more and more particular they seem to move around a lot when you are trying to screw the darn things together. I've bought all the clamps etc they offer but I still get movement. I assume it's because the hole on the matting piece isn't pre-drilled. It's not a production minded solution, but I stick a K body clamp across the joint and lock it down tight. The clamp across the face can keep it flush but it doesn't stop the piece from moving backwards as the screw is trying to get started. It's pretty similar to the kreg clamp that goes into one of the pocket holes. If you give the glue a few minutes once it's clamped then it really can't go anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 If your talking about the old version that was used on New Yankee a Workshop. Yes it's not really a PC its a castle licensed to PC. Castle still offers that model the only difference is they recently changed the pilot hole router to a Bosch since PC discontinued the one they were using. If your talking about the jig that you use a drill with no I have no use for a jig it drills at the same angle as the Kreg anyways just fancier. I need a machine for speed. This is the unit I am referring to. Not sure if it's "norm approved" however.http://www.portercable.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=17120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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