shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Another very helpful video. Thanks so much. In response to your video i took a couple photos of my saw and resaw quality. These two photos are the upper and lower back. According to you do i have the option of toe adjustment? This i photo of some maple i resawed. Really terrible quality. It actually worse than it looks in the photo. Let me know what you think. Thanks again Shane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 What Don’s talking about is spot-on and gets us to the larger issue of wheel alignment… There are a few things we should eliminate prior to jumping the 3rd rail… Note: I think’s it an alignment problem, but you don’t want to have to go there if you can avoid it… From the data we have so far, it could be down to a couple of things: Blade… Get yourself a new blade around ½” - 3/4” from a reputable source… Doubtful, but a good first place to start… Tires… Bad tires can also cause similar issues. Spin the wheels by hand and look for problems with the tires (doubtful, but worth a look). Crowning… Spin the wheels by hand and look for any non-uniformity in the wheels/crown/etc (very rare). Alignment… It’s too early in the day to talk alignment… I downloaded and read the manual for your saw… Unfortunately, it doesn’t give an alignment procedure… However, from the photos in the manual, the adjustments are unlabeled, but user-accessible… Unfortunately, 99.999% of wheel alignment info on the internet is wrong. If it’s down to alignment, you need the procedure from the service manual. Call Laguna technical service in California. The Sr. Service Tech is Brian Bennett – he knows what he is doing – that’s who you want… He’ll probably send you the pdf of the relevant section… Unfortunately, it may be in Italian… But then you pdf=>word=>google translator… Not ideal, but it works… *Note: To get on my soap box for a minute: some years ago, a certain contributing editor (who shall go nameless) at a certain magazine (which shall also go nameless) published a book on band saw setup and use. Unfortunately this book has several sections that are, how shall I put it delicately --- full of crap… This information was taken as gospel and has reposted ever since… Thanks hhh. Would you recommend me getting a new blade before messing with any toe alignment? Keep in mind i have tried 2 different blades, albeit both from the same manufacturer. ...it will probably be a few days before i will have a new blade. Need to find someone that sells them and stocks a 145" of decent quality. Dont want to spend 300$ on a laguna blade right now. Prefer to not give them any of my money actually. Any other blade recommendations? Canadian dealers of them? Really want to get this resolved asap. Its holding me back from setting up the rest of my shop. Thank you Shane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 I doubt any reputable manufacturer will tell you how to adjust the toe ange in fact most will tell you to never touch it. They all assume it's an advanced function and no end user is capable. I learned all about it decades ago by our machine repair guys at the plant. Toe ange is the key to a smooth running and smooth cutting saw. My guess is that while your saw is running you can put your hand on top of the saw an feel all that blade wobble you may even be able to see it. Toe is supposed to be set at the factory. Personally I've never seen a saw that didn't need a small tie adjustmennt by the time it gets to the end user. Dirty secret manufactures don't want you to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 ==>Would you recommend me getting a new blade before messing with any toe alignment? Yes... ....and there's a reason... Because you're going to call Laguna, and they are going to ask you a bunch of questions -- specifically three items mentioned above before they agree to do anything... Only after that and after you send them the video links, are they going to be willing to send you the alignment procedure... As PB says, they won't want to -- but their alternative is a new saw... BTW: the third option is the best -- they send you the regional factory tech to get it working... The guy/gal's probably based in Montreal or Quebec City, so it won't be a big deal for them... In fact, they probably won't send you the procedure, they'd probably send you the tech... ==>Dont want to spend 300$ on a laguna blade right now Get Laguna to send you a free factory 1/2 blade for testing... It's won't be a RK, but a standard blade... ==>I doubt any reputable manufacturer will tell you how to adjust the toe ange in fact most will tell you to never touch it.... ...Dirty secret manufactures don't want you to know. Never a truer statement... ==>Really want to get this resolved asap. Not going to happen -- just get over it... You waited over a month to setup the saw --- the 'rush' argument isn't going to wash with Laguna... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 ==>Would you recommend me getting a new blade before messing with any toe alignment? Yes... ....and there's a reason... Because you're going to call Laguna, and they are going to ask you a bunch of questions -- specifically three items mentioned above before they agree to do anything... Only after that and after you send them the video links, are they going to be willing to send you the alignment procedure... As PB says, they won't want to -- but their alternative is a new saw... BTW: the third option is the best -- they send you the regional factory tech to get it working... The guy/gal's probably based in Montreal or Quebec City, so it won't be a big deal for them... In fact, they probably won't send you the procedure, they'd probably send you the tech... ==>Dont want to spend 300$ on a laguna blade right now Get Laguna to send you a free factory 1/2 blade for testing... It's won't be a RK, but a standard blade... ==>I doubt any reputable manufacturer will tell you how to adjust the toe ange in fact most will tell you to never touch it.... ...Dirty secret manufactures don't want you to know. Never a truer statement... ==>Really want to get this resolved asap. Not going to happen -- just get over it... You waited over a month to setup the saw --- the 'rush' argument isn't going to wash with Laguna... Good info. I will work on getting a new blade tomorrow. I highly doubt laguna will send me a blade as they already sent me a free driftmaster fence... This situation seems odd to me. Buy a brand new saw and it arrive and not be in "new" working order. Then need to spend hours of my time messing with it and changing parts in hopes that it will actually function as advertised. Am i missing something? At this point would i not be better off demanding a refund and getting something from a company that has some sort of qc at the factory ie powermatic. I would be willing to fork out another thousand bucks or two for that matter to receive a pristine saw that works well with "normal" tuning. And IF said saw does not function as mentioned then i would call the company and then a few days later a man with a tool box and far greater knowledge on that piece of equipment would show up and fix the saw as we sipped coffee together and made chit chat about jory winning framework and this ridiculous winter. When my powermatic dealer dropped off the planer the other day he said plane some wood and see how it goes. If its not to your liking then i will send my guy to come tune it for you. Now that seems like the way things should be, atleast the first year. What is your thoughts on this? Suck it up and work with then and be confident it will be a great saw once this is done with or screw em and push for a refund and go with something else? Opinions? Is my thinking on this not at all normal and somewhat skewed? If so, enlighten me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Your thinking is normal that you shouldn't have to spend hours "fixing" a brand new saw. What's not normal is assuming that a company sucks because you got one saw that arrived in poor condition, and thinking you have to spend four grand to resaw a board with a clean cut. I have two saws that I barely spent more than a thousand dollars each on, one from Grizzly and one from Laguna, and they both cut clean and straight...even though they don't have "some sort of QC at the factory like Powermatic." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 ==>doubt laguna will send me a blade as they already sent me a free driftmaster fence... This blade is to verify it’s the saw, not the blade… They’ll send it because there should have been a factory blade delivered with the saw… ==>works well with "normal" tuning I'm not terribly familiar with SCM/Laguna gear, but the assembly procedure (from the manual) involves things like setting the motor mounting plate, belt tension assembly and the motor itself --- along with a few other items I usually see as factory install/adjust… Did you do these, did your retailer or did the factory? Kind of makes me wonder if the lower-wheel alignment bolts got tweaked by someone who didn’t know what they were doing… As an FYI: it’s doesn’t take much of a turn to screw-up wheel alignment, which is why mfg’s don’t want you playing with it… ==>send my guy to come tune it for you. Now that seems like the way things should be, atleast the first year. In a perfect world, kit would be delivered with white-glove service and some test stock should be milled to verify performance… In the real world, this rarely happens for hobby setups… Unfortunatly a $35K doesn't float their boats... You start spending $35K per item, then you'll get white-glove... Years ago, I dealt with Force Machinery (now defunct) and they offered an almost white-glove service – and they had a rigging crew for the heavy stuff... But the internet has killed a lot of those guys off… Now, people order from Amazon, the 500lb tool gets dropped in the driveway and it’s kind of ‘now what’? In the past few years, most of my kit has been delivered with 'something wrong’… I just expect it... Don't like it, but it doesn't bother me anymore -- I just move on… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Your thinking is normal that you shouldn't have to spend hours "fixing" a brand new saw. What's not normal is assuming that a company sucks because you got one saw that arrived in poor condition, and thinking you have to spend four grand to resaw a board with a clean cut. I have two saws that I barely spent more than a thousand dollars each on, one from Grizzly and one from Laguna, and they both cut clean and straight...even though they don't have "some sort of QC at the factory like Powermatic." Eric, i never said i needed to spend 4k to get a clean cut. I am buying tools this time around of a certain size and quality to not have to replace or upgrade ever again. Therefore, i would not replace the laguna with a smaller saw and most other saws in that size/category are more expensive. I was able to resaw with my old 900$ general international. Sorry if you took offense to my thinking that laguna has no qc. I have received three shipments from laguna and all three were blemished/damaged. 1 outta 3, someone missed something, 3 outta 3, serious qc problem. Thats my experience, wish it were different. The driftmaster was apparently "checked" before it was shipped and arrived quite sratched up(can put my fingernails in scratches on face of fence) and missing pieces. The throatplate they sent that was to replace my bent/gouged one arrived mildly blemished and bent alteast 1/16". I dont think im being irrational in my thinking and most people in my situation would seriously question their qc also. Again, sorry if ive offended you, really not my intent. I will keep my negative comments to myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Everything arriving bent or scratched up isn't a QC problem. It's a problem with whoever is between them and you or the way they are packaging things for shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Eh, it's not my place to reprimand you or call out your hyperbole...sorry about that. You're having a terrible time with this thing and I get it. I've been that frustrated before, too. I have to wonder if you Canucks deal with another division of the Laguna company. I only have experience with the one tool, but it's been great, and the reviews on Laguna tools are totally lopsided in the favorable. I know they had a bad stretch with their customer service a few years back, but it seems like people are generally pleased with the tools. The fact that you've had so many things go wrong in such a short time makes me scratch my head. I still hold the opinion that you should be working on a refund instead of working on the saw. I wouldn't tolerate what you're going through...you're more patient than me by a mile and a half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Everything arriving bent or scratched up isn't a QC problem. It's a problem with whoever is between them and you or the way they are packaging things for shipping. Nope. Every piece was properly packaged and packaging was blemish free. I have pictures of the saw before i unpackaged it. Definitely done at the factory pre packaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Eh, it's not my place to reprimand you or call out your hyperbole...sorry about that. You're having a terrible time with this thing and I get it. I've been that frustrated before, too. I have to wonder if you Canucks deal with another division of the Laguna company. I only have experience with the one tool, but it's been great, and the reviews on Laguna tools are totally lopsided in the favorable. I know they had a bad stretch with their customer service a few years back, but it seems like people are generally pleased with the tools. The fact that you've had so many things go wrong in such a short time makes me scratch my head. I still hold the opinion that you should be working on a refund instead of working on the saw. I wouldn't tolerate what you're going through...you're more patient than me by a mile and a half. Ya i think you might be right Eric. I will call the dealer first thing tomorrow morning and explain the situation and see what they can do. I am pretty sure they wont be too keen on the idea of offering me a refund especially since i would not be purchasing a replacement from them. I will keep you guys posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 ==>i would not be purchasing a replacement from them So they only sell Laguna? Not to confuse babies with bathwater -- you can get good and bad kit from the same manufacturer -- remember, mfgs rarely make everything they sell. Actually, I’m not sure Laguna makes anything they sell … Most of L's bandsaws come from SCM and the better ones from Griggio. The only manufacturing Laguna does is slap a ‘Designed in California’ sticker on the saw – and the only ‘Design’ they do is pick the color scheme… Your saw may simply have been damaged in transit… It’s probably not Laguna’s fault that something went wrong --- unless the packaging was under-designed… Laguna has a reasonable hobby-shop kit reputation, so you might want to look for another model… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgreenb Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 I still hold the opinion that you should be working on a refund instead of working on the saw. I wouldn't tolerate what you're going through...you're more patient than me by a mile and a half. This. I would be absolutely shocked if you couldn't get a refund/replacement unit with a little time spent on the phone. You can easily demonstrate how much effort you've put into making the saw work, and I can't believe they wouldn't sympathize with you and give you a refund or make it right in some reasonable fashion. To be honest, I would've sent it back the minute I opened it and it was damaged. Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread, but I'm a bit curious as to why you settled for a free fence instead of just getting a new machine the minute you saw it was damaged. Like I said before, this thread is awesome, and I've learned a ton from PB and TripleH, and I've bookmarked this thread for when I upgrade my little bandsaw. But at this point I think the way to go is to get a replacement unit from Laguna or a refund. Agree with Eric that I wouldn't write off Laguna. I think you got a lemon (in spite of what that customer service guy said), which is unfortunate and frustrating, but it happens. You bought that specific saw for a reason (presumably) - you researched it and found it was the best saw for you. I understand you're frustrated but don't let anecdote outweigh data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 ==>But at this point I think the way to go is to get a replacement unit from Laguna or a refund. I'm not sure this is the correct approach until the OP knows exactly what went wrong... Based on the OP’s videos, I'm betting its wheel alignment... Could be the blade or some other stuff, but I suspect alignment… Why? In addition to the videos, there’s the assembly procedure in the manual: there’s is a good deal more assembly on this saw than I'm used to seeing for a bandsaw... Several of the assembly procedures involve adjustments located fairly near the alignment bolts (from the manual, they don’t look like the locking type and like most saws, the purpose of these bolts isn’t labeled)… Depending on who did the setup, an alignment bolt may have been incorrectly torqued ---- this mess might be down to a ¾ turn of a single bolt… On the other hand, we know that something happened in transit and the other way the saw may exhibit this phenomena is to bend the frame… Every tool I’ve gotten in the past several years have had impact indicators on all three axis… Did you inspect them prior to signing for delivery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Hhh and bgreenb, the saw was for sure not damaged in transit. Nor any of the other pieces i received. The boxes were pristine. The saw was packaged VERY well. As you can see in the second photo. The motor is well boxed and secure but this is what the motor looked like The table was wrapped within that packaging in its own box and this is what it was like The wheels which are inside the saw looked like this And the base This saw was not damaged in transit. It was packaged this way. The driftmaster fence i received was packaged perfectly and the fence itself was in bubble wrap yet it was scratched up itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 ==>i would not be purchasing a replacement from them So they only sell Laguna? Not to confuse babies with bathwater -- you can get good and bad kit from the same manufacturer -- remember, mfgs rarely make everything they sell. Actually, I’m not sure Laguna makes anything they sell … Most of L's bandsaws come from SCM and the better ones from Griggio. The only manufacturing Laguna does is slap a ‘Designed in California’ sticker on the saw – and the only ‘Design’ they do is pick the color scheme… Your saw may simply have been damaged in transit… It’s probably not Laguna’s fault that something went wrong --- unless the packaging was under-designed… Laguna has a reasonable hobby-shop kit reputation, so you might want to look for another model… No hhh they dont only sell laguna. They have sone other brands but dont have powermatic. My powermatic dealer is local in montreal and has been amazing. So has powermatic quality so i would probably go that route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eric. Posted March 15, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 That's outrageous. I would have demanded a return the minute I opened that thing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgreenb Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Yeah you're a better man tha I am for putting all this effort in. Thing would've been going back as soon as I saw that damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 ==>but dont have powermatic There’s lots of good brands out there – you don’t only have to purchase PM to get quality… But if you like PM, have at it... However, I'm missing something... You sent those photos to Laguna and they didn’t offer to replace the saw? Or did you send them to the retailer? I can’t believe that Laguna would not replace the saw on seeing that level of damage… To be fair to Laguna, I doubt someone would shrink-wrap over those dents in the motor or the lower wheel assembly – that’s hardly likely… These things happen -- but's it's usually with demo saws, floor models, etc because they lack some of the original packing materials… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Yup, you either got sold someone elses headache that was dropped in shipment and repackaged or thats a demo saw. Either way, I'm with Eric. Never would I accept that saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Yes i sent these photos to the director of sales in canada. Thats who my dealer put me in contact with. This was his propsal to the damage; " Hi Shane, Ok, I've finally got a proposal from the management at Laguna Tools in CA to compensate you for your damaged bandsaw. Once again, we are very sorry, and please accept our apologies for the situation. As I mentioned to you last night, it happens sometimes that machines are damaged at the factory in Asia, and shipped to us as is. Despite our best efforts to inspect them when they arrive at our warehouse in CA, some damages may go by unnoticed until the machine is fully unpacked by the customer. Judging from the pictures you sent us, it seems that the damages are only cosmetic and will not prevent your bandsaw from performing well. That being said, we occasionally sell damaged machines during "scratch and dent" sales, and we discount them by 10% to 20% depending on the level of damages. In your case, you would have got 10% off, so about 250$ rebate on that machine. We accept to send you a Driftmaster fence (value of 499$ + tx = 575$) free of charge to compensate your inconveniences and your deception in receiving your machine in such condition. We will also send you a new capacitor motor cover, as well as a new aluminum throat plate. As far as the cast iron table is concerned, you can easily fix its flatness by using very thin shims under the table if you really want it dead flat, but depending on the kind of work the bandsaw is intended for, this may be uneccesary. Regarding the deep linear scratch, you can use a high grit sandpaper and smooth out the edges so it doesn't catch or scratch your wood. Obviously, all this doesn't change anything on your 1 year warranty, so if there's a problem later, it will be covered under the terms of our warranty. Let me know if you accept this proposal, and if so, I'll make the arrangement with Elite Tools for the Driftmaster fence. The throat plate and the motor cover will ship from CA. Once again, please accept our apologies. Let me know if you have questions." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 It never really seemed to be an option to get my money back. I really thought it would be fine. I trusted that he said they are cosmetic damages and wouldn't affect the functionality of the saw. My bad i guess..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 So reading that, I "might" have accepted his offer as well. But when the driftmaster fence and throat plate arrived damaged, i would have told him to come get it all....i want every penny back, i'm done. You still have this option. Sorry but he was blowing smoke up your ass. That machine wouldn't sell for 10 percent off to even the biggest of fools. Thats a beat to hell second hand used machine in that condition. whats the 20% off saw look like? Hit by.a train? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwalter5110 Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Wait, your wheels had damage, but weren't replaced? I'm sure that is causing you your problems! I would ask for your money back, or at least a replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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