Ls;Akfhsdlfhs

[Eric.]

26 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Yeah but do your kids a favor and sell your crap before you die!  My dad has literally thousands of model trains from the 1920's

If that's true then I'll sell it for you and we'll split it 50/50.  There's money there.  It's not like he's leaving you a pine cone collection.

[gee-dub]

Lots of good conversation here.  When I was foolish enough to golf regularly I can't recall blaming my inability to afford a $300 driver for my lousy skills; I just wasn't very good at golf.

That being said, I can agree with those who mention that poor tools will yield poor results.  I also agree that there is a very wide range of very usable tools in between a BORG contractor saw and a Martin T75.  Average tools can yield very nice results as long as they function correctly.

For someone trying to learn guitar, a very poor instrument can kill the dream.  Many of us here know the experience of picking up a very poor hand tool and feeling the result of trying to use it.  Using a good solid version of the same sort of tool yields a very different reaction.

Bemoaning the fact that someone has a Festool XYZ (I don't) or a Saw Stop 123 (I do) seems kind of silly.  We all have different means and priorities. Like my friend with the multi-hundred dollar fishing reels, I spend my money where it is important to me.  I am also realistic about where I want to spend.  My friend doesn't own 'a hole in the water that you dump money into' (a boat) since he can afford much better gear by taking fishing trips on charters when and where he wants to. 

I have some very average tools that do a fine job.  I have some tasks where I feel it warrants a better or more elegant tool and  I spend the money I saved in one place in another.  Although as someone else mentioned, my shop is quite comfy and I have yet to get anywhere near the money I use to spend golfing . . . including the 19th hole, of course ;-)

[Cliff]

2 hours ago, Mike. said:

 I just wrote this in collin's tablesaw thread but if applies here as well.

The new vs. used debate really ends up being a personal decision.  For hobby use I'd rather have a new machine, even if it is a lower spec, that has a warranty and proper riving knife and blade guard.   I detest, despise, absolutely hate working on machines.  If I wanted to get my hands greasy I'd have a 67 mustang fastback and sell all my woodworking machines.  I prefer working wood to mechanical work and I will always buy new for that reason.  I also have no interest in dealing with Craig's list and spending the little free time I have on weekends driving all over the state trying to find a deal.  

Some folks enjoy working on machines and the Craig's list hunt is part of the hobby.  I totally respect that, but it is just not for me.  

I agree completely!

 

2 hours ago, Chestnut said:

I hate trying to change people's opinions because there is no such ting as a wrong one and wars are started based on them. I'm not going to kill someone to try and convince you this.

No tool will make up for the lack of skill, even a CNC takes skill just a different kind. I do a lot of photography and watched countless people assume that a $3,000 camera will get them pictures like a pro it's just not true. I can make a terrible cut on my PM1000 and i can make a great cut on my old DW745. I bought the PM1000 not because the DW745 wasn't working or was inaccurate but because i was sick of the damn thing tipping over on me.

I think I'm using the wrong word, in my brain, skill is sorta an accumulation of "skill in setting up machines, jigs, hand tools to get what you need from them" as well as "skill in using machines that comes from experience." There is also another factor to skill that comes from experience and that's the part that is not impacted by tools, but this is not the part I'm personally referring to.

I don't have the skill to properly set up an old hand plane, but I can use one that comes brand new, set up and free of hassle and costs 5x more. I don't have the skill and experience to do a lot of things, but a tool that is superior to the one I was using to try to do the job is going to work much better for me. An example would be my jointer, had I not bought it used & sorta broken, I'd have saved about two months time, but lost maybe $2000 more. I think the experience I got on that Grizz is valuable, but I'd have rather had that time back because I would have created maybe 1 or 2 more projects, because presumably the new PM jointer would come basically set up and ready to go.

I equate it to programming.. yeah I can do a job if I don't know the language I'm coding in. I'll learn it. But it's going to take me probably twice as long and the results may not be nearly as good in the end because I don't understand all the intricacies involved with that language.

Essentially I really believe everyone should do whatever the hell they want and never ever care about what anyone else thinks if at all possible. For me, I get better results with more expensive tools, because I am not willing to put the work into older, less refined tools and the new expensive ones work as expected. I imagine if I got a domino, my work would probably look better because of all the potential pain points associated with traditional mortise & tenon. However, I do know that I can fix those pain points by repeatedly doing it, and because that is absolutely the part of the hobby I signed up for - I'm on board with it and will hold off on a domino until I can proudly say that I can do professional looking M&T.

I think that a lot of folk that are using old, beat down, grungy tools have already got considerable experience in woodworking and find that they can build with anything - that's great, hope I'm there someday. Til then, I'm gonna drop all the money I can scrounge up on new stuff. Like mentioned above somewhere.. a drum sander because flattening and sanding an end grain cutting board is a hassle. In fact, flattening large panels is something I KNOW I don't have the skill to do right now, because I tried. So a drum sander will give me a better looking project.

[Cliff]

42 minutes ago, gee-dub said:

For someone trying to learn guitar, a very poor instrument can kill the dream.  Many of us here know the experience of picking up a very poor hand tool and feeling the result of trying to use it.  Using a good solid version of the same sort of tool yields a very different reaction.

 

I can tell you from personal experience, having owned 12 different guitars, that the $3000 one I have makes me sound so much better. But I got multiple friends that can pick up say.. my first guitar, a pawn shop Kramer model from the 80's and make it sound better than my John Petrucci JPX when I'm on it. Their skill just wipes me out. But that JPX fretboard is smooth and easy to play, especially with the thin neck, and the pickups sound so great that my mistakes or sloppiness is less noticeable.

 

2 hours ago, wdwerker said:

My grandfather taught me that working class folks can't afford to buy and replace cheap things. Tools, clothes, cars all fall into this category. He said buy the best quality you can afford and take care of it to get the most value over the long haul. It doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles . I have bought tools and gotten all the accessories and some have never been used.

The whole buy once, cry once thing - and yet it's looked down on by a lot of people. You are smarter for buying the best quality you can get, but people on the internet are making ridiculous comments about it. So silly!

 

2 hours ago, Mike. said:

Yeah but do your kids a favor and sell your crap before you die!  My dad has literally thousands of model trains from the 1920's - 1980s and he can no longer use them or, due to his diminished mental capacity, even tell you what who made what.  We'd like to sell but it will take months to sort it all out.  So for now it just collects dust.  Believe it or not, I know I will quit woodworking one day.  Maybe in 5 years, maybe in 25.  All hobbies come and go for me.  At that time I will sell all my stuff and move on.  

My stepfather is one of those too. Tons of model trains and tractors. They've sat in storage for 20 years now, and he knows he needs to go through them and sell them but hasn't. He just says, "I'll leave it to you to figure out." PLEASE NO. I already took care of his comic collection, helped him sell it. He had.. if they were in just relatively half way decent shape - probably $300-500K in comics (X-men #1-5, several key issues from the first 50 Spider-Man books, most of the Fantastic Four 10-50.) But they were so damaged, ripped, dirty and mangled that he only got about $5000 for 300 books. At least those I know what I'm doing when selling.

[PWRFULZ3R0]

I always have seen it as a form of cognitive dissonance on their part. They've always wanted to make their own awesome handcrafted furniture but then say to themselves "Well I can't do that because I need all these brand new expensive tools". Then they can get back to their life not having to put in any effort in to that dream/want.

Externalizing those feelings to you is just another, stronger, form of affirmation of that cognitive dissonance. And maybe at some point they'll stop being their worst enemy and take the plunge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chestnut]

9 minutes ago, Mike. said:

--> my work would probably look better because of all the potential pain points associated with traditional mortise & tenon

Great example. M&T is not particurly difficult, but put it in the words of a former member, a drunk monkey can make a nice clean domino joint.  So there is an instance where a tool can absolutely help a new woodworker achieve professional looking, high quality results.  

Don't bring the domino into this conversation, that's just not fair. That's like bringing a gun to a knife fight.

[Chestnut]

26 minutes ago, Cliff said:

I agree completely!

 

I think I'm using the wrong word, in my brain, skill is sorta an accumulation of "skill in setting up machines, jigs, hand tools to get what you need from them" as well as "skill in using machines that comes from experience." ......because I tried. So a drum sander will give me a better looking project.

Actually i think this is a great example of having enough skill to know that your tools are being a road block towards your success. You are probably going about this the way you should. Johnny big bucks on the other hand that has never completed anything in his life and wants a full shop of powermatic and is complaining about spec sheets is a different story.

Now i have to figure out which client I'm going to bill all this time to. The government or private sector?

[Eric.]

24 minutes ago, PWRFULZ3R0 said:

I always have seen it as a form of cognitive dissonance on their part. They've always wanted to make their own awesome handcrafted furniture but then say to themselves "Well I can't do that because I need all these brand new expensive tools". Then they can get back to their life not having to put in any effort in to that dream/want.

Externalizing those feelings to you is just another, stronger, form of affirmation of that cognitive dissonance. And maybe at some point they'll stop being their worst enemy and take the plunge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well said and totally agree.  Self-fulfilling prophecy.  "I can't do that," because of whatever.  And they prove it to themselves.

[Cliff]

11 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Actually i think this is a great example of having enough skill to know that your tools are being a road block towards your success. You are probably going about this the way you should. Johnny big bucks on the other hand that has never completed anything in his life and wants a full shop of powermatic and is complaining about spec sheets is a different story.

Now i have to figure out which client I'm going to bill all this time to. The government or private sector?

The time in this thread? Mine is getting billed to the government But I'm also working on my development machine at the same time doing SharePoint development and am in jQuery deferred chaining HELL. So I need ping ponging back and forth to keep my mind clear and stress free.

[Chestnut]

Just now, Mike. said:

i flipping hate sharepoint, or at least the version we have.  

It should be called $#!^point in my opinion.

[Cliff]

There is no good version of SharePoint. Though I've only used 2007, 2010 and now on 2013. But due to government security restrictions we can't do custom c# programming that requires RunWithElevatedPrivileges() so I have to convert a monstrosity of an application to pure asynchronous jQuery to write and read from lists and such. In one particular page I'm doing about 25 asyncronous hits to SharePoint but they are all dependent on ones that come before, meaning "asynchronous" but needs to act "synchronous" - hence my pain.

Sorry for anyone that read through that wants to shoot themselves.