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[Guest]

Reading this thread makes me glad that I don't look to youtube for inspiration or entertainment.  If I need help with a specific technique I will turn to youtube.  For example "through tenon router jig".  But for project and design ideas I look to books and the things I see around me.   

[..Kev]

32 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Listen y'all...if you put ANYTHING in the hands of the general public, they'll ruin it.  Music, movies, sports, nature, roads, the air...you name it and PEOPLE have ruined it.  Luckily, woodworking is not something that can be ruined if YOU don't let it, because you do it by yourself in your garage exactly the way you wanna do it.  It's totally independent and you never have to include a single other person in your work if you choose.

So pick your select few sources of information and entertainment like I do...and unplug the rest...they're a waste of time.  Just hit the ignore button on the DIY pine and paint channels, and get out in the shop.

The problem is that there are very few resources for quality work out there any more.  Paid or unpaid, there are only a handful of builders producing quality build videos!

 

[Tom Cancelleri]

3 hours ago, C Shaffer said:

Yeah, well if I had a CNC I could turn out great work!

This statement is only true if you have an idea of how to actually use the software

 

[Eric.]

18 minutes ago, TIODS said:

The problem is that there are very few resources for quality work out there any more.  Paid or unpaid, there are only a handful of builders producing quality build videos!

 

Yeah, but meh, so what?  There's enough out there to learn the basic, intermediate and advanced skill-sets...after that it's all about practice.  I think most people spend way more time researching* than actually building, which is why they suck.

*sitting on your ass and drooling on your keyboard

[krtwood]

51 minutes ago, Gixxerjoe04 said:

There is one pretty popular woodworker youtuber who seemed to just mainly catered to the diy crowd in the beginning, but his most recent videos have improved quite a bit to more actual woodworking besides pocket screws and pine, was pretty surprised. 

You probably mean Jay Bates.  I think a lot of people have modeled themselves after Steve Ramsey, since he was probably the first to go full time youtube without being supplemented by something else on the side.  I'm not going to knock Steve at all, he's very good at what he does.  But he's made a conscious decision about what sort of projects he's going to do, and stopped doing anything more involved that he used to sometimes do.  The advice you get from Steve if you ask him about how to be successful on youtube is to never do multipart videos and put out videos on a regular schedule.  I think if Jay continues to do what he has been doing lately and continues to be successful at it then you'll see more guys willing to challenge that model.  I think he's on a Norm-like trajectory.  Norm started out making adirondack chairs and picnic tables and ended up making a high boy.

I've gotten one or two "If I had all those tools I could do stuff too" kind of comments.  My shop really is pretty much all mid range basic stuff.  Okay, I have a cnc, but it was basically the cheapest cnc you could possibly get at the time I got it.  And okay, just got a cyclone this year.  People have table saws that cost more than my cnc, whereas my table saw is probably the most expensive normal power tool in the shop and it was $650, IIRC.  The camera, lens, and tripod that I'm shooting the video with cost a lot more than that.  But you know what?  I don't have a smart phone that I throw away every other year or go out to eat or on vacations or any of the other stuff these people spent their money on instead of tools or photography gear. I made my choices and they made theirs.  

[..Kev]

You know Krtwood, yours are some of the videos that I really enjoy.  You never make excuses for tooling, you tend to use legitimate tools, you rarely skimp on material, and you nearly always stretch my thinking!  I've probably watched more of your videos in the last month than any other.

I like Steve Ramsey, I really do!  Unfortunately for me, they do fall in that "cheap" category and I can only take so much of it.  Same with Jay Bates.  Both will succeed well on YouTube as they supply that market.  My point was that there's a market beyond what they are producing.

[krtwood]

2 minutes ago, TIODS said:

You know Krtwood, yours are some of the videos that I really enjoy.  You never make excuses for tooling, you tend to use legitimate tools, you rarely skimp on material, and you nearly always stretch my thinking!  I've probably watched more of your videos in the last month than any other.

Thanks!  I haven't really had much of chance to make a lot of actual furniture, lacking a house to put it in.  Hopefully in two years I'll be able to make that step and then we're gonna have some fun.  I may have the bedroom set done before then.

Jay has really been turning it on lately.

 

[..Kev]

1 minute ago, krtwood said:

Thanks!  I haven't really had much of chance to make a lot of actual furniture, lacking a house to put it in.  Hopefully in two years I'll be able to make that step and then we're gonna have some fun.  I may have the bedroom set done before then.

Jay has really been turning it on lately.

 

I look forward to seeing those videos in a couple years!  As for Jay, I'm hoping he sees the handwriting on the wall and doesn't just simply pander to the new woodworker.  I think he has some skills and has a business decision to make.

[Llama]

7 hours ago, krtwood said:

I'm not going to knock Steve at all, he's very good at what he does.  But he's made a conscious decision about what sort of projects he's going to do, and stopped doing anything more involved that he used to sometimes do.

Exactly. Not knocking the guy at all. I used to watch him because he's kind of funny. I stopped watching him after the 5th or so video where he chose a landscaping stakes instead of the material he said he wanted because he saved five bucks. It's one thing to make "budget" builds, but this just rubbed me the wrong way. And I think a lot of these comments have something to do with guys like Ramsey.

Talking to a few people last night... 

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with saying "nice tool", or something like that. Thats cool, and always welcome. If it weren't for those comments, we wouldn't be posting tools pics or shop tours.  

[Cliff]

When I started I was guilty of thinking (not voicing) some of those thoughts. Especially upon getting a closer look into the shops of a lot of you here. I know that I make a great salary, and couldn't outfit myself to be like Eric's shop. But then.. two pieces of logic fall into place:

1. He's been doing this for years. He didn't buy it all in one year.

2. He probably has little or no debt, or at the very least, is more financially responsible than me.

So those thoughts went away with that realization. Nobody is responsible for my idiocy but me, and that's why I can't drop $30k on a shop in my first year (but 15k is apparently doable with side jobs.)

On Youtube, it's a different story. Some of those people get some views and suddenly their entire "cheap" shop is outfitted with gear from their sponsors. I personally don't like that. A big reason is I despise advertising in any form, and another is people shouldn't get free stuff for the sole reason of trying to make me, the consumer, spend more money. It's not as bad as Hollywood people who get $150,000 cars for free to be seen driving them when they could buy a fleet of them, but it's stupid to me. But that also gets me towards this culture of celebrity worship that I hate and how apparently online woodworkers are slowly becoming part of that - and it's a rant so I will skip it.

I do think there is a lot of bad content out there, subpar even for my skillset. The reason I've never made anything that looks amazing is because I reach so far above my head that someone should be slapping me down. So I skipped the Ana White thing completely. I skipped that Steve Ramsey guy as well because nothing he makes is of interest to me. I tried to skip April Wilkerson, but unfortunately some of the things she does are exactly the sort of thing my wife will want - and she's really a very good example of someone just trying to better themselves through trial and error. However, to me she is also a very good example of "my shop is now 100% Triton overnight."

 

7 hours ago, krtwood said:

You probably mean Jay Bates.  I think a lot of people have modeled themselves after Steve Ramsey, since he was probably the first to go full time youtube without being supplemented by something else on the side.  I'm not going to knock Steve at all, he's very good at what he does.  But he's made a conscious decision about what sort of projects he's going to do, and stopped doing anything more involved that he used to sometimes do.  The advice you get from Steve if you ask him about how to be successful on youtube is to never do multipart videos and put out videos on a regular schedule.  I think if Jay continues to do what he has been doing lately and continues to be successful at it then you'll see more guys willing to challenge that model.  I think he's on a Norm-like trajectory.  Norm started out making adirondack chairs and picnic tables and ended up making a high boy.

I've gotten one or two "If I had all those tools I could do stuff too" kind of comments.  My shop really is pretty much all mid range basic stuff.  Okay, I have a cnc, but it was basically the cheapest cnc you could possibly get at the time I got it.  And okay, just got a cyclone this year.  People have table saws that cost more than my cnc, whereas my table saw is probably the most expensive normal power tool in the shop and it was $650, IIRC.  The camera, lens, and tripod that I'm shooting the video with cost a lot more than that.  But you know what?  I don't have a smart phone that I throw away every other year or go out to eat or on vacations or any of the other stuff these people spent their money on instead of tools or photography gear. I made my choices and they made theirs.  

 

I agree completely on Jay. Jay was in that crowd where I ignored most of his projects. I liked his jigs and the way he came up with ways to do things like his bar clamping vises, etc. The guy has talent and a real gift for editing videos, but he wasn't making what I wanted to see (except for shop organization.) But now I'm seeing him make his journey down the path to what I do want to do and this interests me. I still think anything done in pine looks horrible, but I learned something new watching him do hand cut dovetails, so there is value there. He definitely has gotten the motivation to expand his skillset and I like watching that so he's become one of my must watch guys for the week along with Cremona and Marc.

[Chestnut]

It's at least daily i want to post a comment on this site about how it's not the tools it's how you use them. You can hand Bob Ross a crappy brush and 4 colors and he'll paint something that looks awesome.

Social media is lame and it lead me here because i couldn't find the content i was looking for. That content was here. Is it in video form? Nope but it's better that way because i can as the creator exactly how they did X Y Z.

Because it seems like it got forgotten here is my face keyboard skills

 nbbv mn jbhv vc

[RichardA]

It's odd to me, The only places I go for woodworking info is Paul Sellers, and here.  I have never delibertly looked for woodworking content anywhere else.  I don't covet anyone's tools, I have tools. I've only heard about these other guys mentioned here, both good and bad comments.  I guess, I kinda rely on me and the tools I have to do the things that I prefer doing.  There's no doubt that I learn something every day I'm in the shop, and that alone makes me feel good!  I'd like to upgrade a few of my present tools, but not because "you" have them, but because at 73 years old, I've breathed in at least two sequoia's in my life time, and I'd like to make it to 74, cause I've a couple of unfinished projects!  Mel, Eric, Kev, Shaney and a bunch of you other guys have beautiful sets of tools, and I'm glad for you, but mine are old, well kept and sharp, and were my skills better, and they do get better daily, I wouldn't trade my tools unless it matches my skills, or my skills match my tool!

[Cliff]

25 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

It's at least daily i want to post a comment on this site about how it's not the tools it's how you use them.

 

I get where everyone comes from with this, but it's a little about the tools. A few examples:

1. First jointer was a 4" with a tiny bed. Couldn't figure out why I couldn't get a straight edge. Get the Grizz 8" with 76" bed, no more bowed edges.

2. First planer, 1985 Ryobi. Nothing I did would make it cut evenly. It was off by .02" thickness every time. Get the Dewalt 735, no more problems.

3. Circular saw doesn't make square cuts. Probably not meant to, it's a $60 cordless. Get a track saw, no more problems with out of square cuts.

4. Can't control my jig saw cuts on a 1980's era Black & Decker. It's like using a jackhammer while drunk. Get a Festool, no more problems. You could argue I didn't need Festool, and would win that argument.

5. Went from 1980's era Craftsman table saw to Delta 36-725. Still not a perfect saw, but suddenly I had much better experience and cuts.

I could go on and on. Especially for someone that is new to a craft, a better tool makes for a better learning experience. I had a horrid time with a block plane from Lowes, but instantly was pleased with the results from my Lie Neilsen block plane. Could I have made the Lowes one work? Yep. The steel may suck for holding edges but I could have tuned it to work right. But when I'd been woodworking for about 40 days at the time? I had literally just figured out you can't screw a 3" screw into wood without a pilot hole or an impact driver.

So my opinion is better tools = better accuracy, more consistent results, and a more pleasing experience. All of those things help make up for my lack of skill - and over time, my skill will have leveled up and life will be grand.

Those dudes that really like restoring hand planes - great, glad you do it, but I'll take a LN or LV any day of the week over me having to do that work, and even over one that someone else has restored.

[Tom Cancelleri]

15 minutes ago, Cliff said:

 But when I'd been woodworking for about 40 days at the time? I had literally just figured out you can't screw a 3" screw into wood without a pilot hole or an impact driver.

It took 40 days to learn that?

 

Just messing with you, it painted a very vivid image of the learning curve that is woodworking. 

[Cliff]

2 minutes ago, Tom Cancelleri said:

It took 40 days to learn that?

 

Just messing with you, it painted a very vivid image of the learning curve that is woodworking. 

It's staggering to think of how far I've come, and I'm still light years behind a lot of you guys. I just flat out knew nothing.

[Chestnut]

1 minute ago, Cliff said:

I get where everyone comes from with this, but it's a little about the tools. A few examples:

1. First jointer was a 4" with a tiny bed. Couldn't figure out why I couldn't get a straight edge. Get the Grizz 8" with 76" bed, no more bowed edges.

2. First planer, 1985 Ryobi. Nothing I did would make it cut evenly. It was off by .02" thickness every time. Get the Dewalt 735, no more problems.

3. Circular saw doesn't make square cuts. Probably not meant to, it's a $60 cordless. Get a track saw, no more problems with out of square cuts.

4. Can't control my jig saw cuts on a 1980's era Black & Decker. It's like using a jackhammer while drunk. Get a Festool, no more problems. You could argue I didn't need Festool, and would win that argument.

5. Went from 1980's era Craftsman table saw to Delta 36-725. Still not a perfect saw, but suddenly I had much better experience and cuts.

I could go on and on. Especially for someone that is new to a craft, a better tool makes for a better learning experience. I had a horrid time with a block plane from Lowes, but instantly was pleased with the results from my Lie Neilsen block plane. Could I have made the Lowes one work? Yep. The steel may suck for holding edges but I could have tuned it to work right. But when I'd been woodworking for about 40 days at the time? I had literally just figured out you can't screw a 3" screw into wood without a pilot hole or an impact driver.

So my opinion is better tools = better experience, better accuracy, more consistent results, and a more pleasing experience. All of those things help make up for my lack of skill - and over time, my skill will have leveled up and life will be grand.

Those dudes that really like restoring hand planes - great, glad you do it, but I'll take a LN or LV any day of the week over me having to do that work, and even over one that someone else has restored.

Well i guess broken tools just suck. Assume that the tools aren't broken and have the possibility of being tuned up. I'm sure bob ross would struggle if you hand him a brush with no bristles.

[mrrhode04]

A lot people know a days like to come up with excuses for why they aren't doing as well as others. It is kinda like keeping up with the Johnsons and if you can't make up an excuse why you can't.

When I started building my shop I got a hand me down jointer from my gramp, the brand is shop master it is from the 50s, a little while after that my mom gave me the matching band saw and then I found a shop master drill press at a garage sale. Are these great tools, nope but they worked for a little while until I could upgrade to a used 6" Powermatic jointer and a Laguna 1412 but I still have the drill press. My table saw well that is basically a craftsmen job saw, not great but still cuts wood. ROS nothing super special, same with my routers they are craftsmen. But I still get all my projects done and they look pretty decent. Some day I will upgrade all these tools but first I need to get other tools that will make my life a little easier, like a drum sander. I make a lot of end grain cutting boards and using a router jig to flatten them and then sanding with the ROS is taking to long.

I guess my point is use what you have and create what you want, who cares if you didn't spend 5k on your table saw, learn how to use yours and make something.

[Llama]

30 minutes ago, Cliff said:

So my opinion is better tools = better accuracy, more consistent results, and a more pleasing experience.

Of course they do. If they didn't, they would sell far less of them than they do.

But, it is a sliding scale. More times than not it comes down to the woodworker, not the tool. 

I haven't seen you complain about the cost of things. Those are the comments being discussed here. Not the guy starting out, and trying his best to learn this stuff with what he has. Hell, my first few projects on here were painted pallet wood. I did the best with what I had. I quickly realized that nicer wood makes things more appealing. I've given you a fair amount of crap, but most of it was good natured ribbing.

[midtnwoodworker]

Most people in life are idiots. The sooner you realize this, the easier it is to say meh f*(@ em.

[Cliff]

38 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Well i guess broken tools just suck. Assume that the tools aren't broken and have the possibility of being tuned up. I'm sure bob ross would struggle if you hand him a brush with no bristles.

 

But my main point is this - Realistically, who the hell has time to fix up and tune every single tool at their disposal? My stepfather has like 2 buildings full of old tools. Each one would require tons of time to get back into the shape needed to do pretty decent work. I started this hobby to make things, not fix tools. Anything that helps me get there better and faster is absolutely a plus in my book.

And those higher priced tools help compensate for my lack of time and skill. So I'm not really down on the concept. So that was what I meant with it's a little bit the tools that make the project. The better you are skill-wise, the less the tool matters obviously.

 

4 minutes ago, Llama said:

Of course they do. If they didn't, they would sell far less of them than they do.

But, it is a sliding scale. More times than not it comes down to the woodworker, not the tool. 

I haven't seen you complain about the cost of things. Those are the comments being discussed here. Not the guy starting out, and trying his best to learn this stuff with what he has. Hell, my first few projects on here were painted pallet wood. I did the best with what I had. I quickly realized that nicer wood makes things more appealing. I've given you a fair amount of crap, but most of it was good natured ribbing.

 

Yeah I'll never discount anyone's skill with lesser tools, because they'll make something better than I would with a nice shop of new stuff.

I do feel though that there are 3 default settings for people: Tool snobbery - if it doesn't cost $3k, doesn't belong in my shop. Anti-Tool snobbery-snobbery - If it isn't from the 50's it doesn't belong in my shop and it shouldn't be in yours either you dilettante. And then you know.. the regular dude who is doin his thing.

[Chestnut]

11 minutes ago, Cliff said:

And those higher priced tools help compensate for my lack of time and skill. So I'm not really down on the concept. So that was what I meant with it's a little bit the tools that make the project. The better you are skill-wise, the less the tool matters obviously.

I hate trying to change people's opinions because there is no such ting as a wrong one and wars are started based on them. I'm not going to kill someone to try and convince you this.

No tool will make up for the lack of skill, even a CNC takes skill just a different kind. I do a lot of photography and watched countless people assume that a $3,000 camera will get them pictures like a pro it's just not true. I can make a terrible cut on my PM1000 and i can make a great cut on my old DW745. I bought the PM1000 not because the DW745 wasn't working or was inaccurate but because i was sick of the damn thing tipping over on me.

[Eric.]

1 minute ago, Chestnut said:

I hate trying to change people's opinions because there is no such ting as a wrong one and wars are started based on them. I'm not going to kill someone to try and convince you this.

No tool will make up for the lack of skill

That's not what he's saying.  He's saying better tools help when skills are lacking.  And I totally agree with him.  Try flattening a board with a 1980s Stanley #5 with a plastic handle and a paper-thin blade that you found in the trash.  You're gonna suck.  Now try it with a brand new Lie-Nielsen right out of the box.  You're still gonna suck, but you're gonna suck less, guaranteed.  That's what he's saying.

[Robby W]

I think some people forget that when you acquire tools over a forty year period, you can end up with quite a collection. And if they were nice to begin with, a nice collection that might represent a chunk o' money. And when we die, that chunk gets passed on to our kids or redistributed via an estate sale and the cycle continues. You don't see many good forty year old bass boats but many old woodworking tools are coveted.

[Chestnut]

3 minutes ago, Eric. said:

That's not what he's saying.  He's saying better tools help when skills are lacking.  And I totally agree with him.  Try flattening a board with a 1980s Stanley #5 with a plastic handle and a paper-thin blade that you found in the trash.  You're gonna suck.  Now try it with a brand new Lie-Nielsen right out of the box.  You're still gonna suck, but you're gonna suck less, guaranteed.  That's what he's saying.

I think we're all saying similar things in different ways. I apologize for hurt feelings and angry emotions. I was more or less trying to say that a $600 rigid saw or a $3,000 saw stop is going to be about the same to a beginner. Obviously that beginner is going to get a better cut from either or those than a piece of trash they got on the side of the road. I can't argue against that it just makes sense i agree please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

[wdwerker]

My grandfather taught me that working class folks can't afford to buy and replace cheap things. Tools, clothes, cars all fall into this category. He said buy the best quality you can afford and take care of it to get the most value over the long haul. It doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles . I have bought tools and gotten all the accessories and some have never been used.