Is there a practical difference

[Ronn W]

Question 1.  When it comes to smoothing planes is there a practical difference between a #4 with a 45 degree cutting angle and a something like the Veritas Bevel up smoothing plane with a 35 degree blade bevel (47 degress total)?  Both are about the same size.

Question 2:  What would be the advantage to putting a blade with a 50 degree bevel in the bevel up plane (62 degrees total)??  I will be using this combination in Lonnie Birds class.  I will certainly learn his answer at the class but wanted you guys' input.

[shaneymack]

10 minutes ago, Ronn W said:

Question 1.  When it comes to smoothing planes is there are practical difference between a #4 with a 45 degree cutting angle and a something like the Veritas Bevel up smoothing plane with a 35 degree blade bevel (47 degress total)?  Both are about the same size.

The wood doesnt know the difference which plane is bevel up and which is bevel down. Put the same angle in both with a sharp blade and they will achieve the same result. The rest is personal preference which will forever be debated to death on the interwebs. My preference is a plane that is sharp and cuts wood.

Quote

Question 2:  What would be the advantage to putting a blade with a 50 degree bevel in the bevel up plane (62 degrees total)??  I will be using this combination in Lonnie Birds class.  I will certainly learn his answer at the class but wanted you guys' input.

You would use that if you had some really funky grain. Higher the angle of attack, the less chance of tear out. It will make it harder to push....

[Ronn W]

1 minute ago, shaneymack said:

You would use that if you had some really funky grain. Higher the angle of attack, the less chance of tear out. 

So would ther be a reason not to use the 62 degree angle for smoothing any reasonble wood with or without funky grain?

[shaneymack]

Just now, Ronn W said:

So would ther be a reason not to use the 62 degree angle for smoothing any reasonble wood with or without funky grain?

Yes. It will make it much harder to push vs a 45 degree. 

[Immortan D]

I agree with Shane in that the angle is what matters the most, but there are a few differences that make me like bevel down planes more than their bevel up cousins:

1. BD planes are generally heavier. That, to me, is a huge benefit.

2. BD planes have chip breakers. IMO That helps getting continuous shavings and it reduces chatter.

3. BD planes are more forgiving. There is more risk of tear out with a BU plane, always.

[shaneymack]

4 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

BD planes have chip breakers. IMO That helps getting continuous shavings and it reduces chatter.

BS

4 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

BD planes are more forgiving. There is more risk of tear out with a BU plane, always.

BS

 

 

Open the foodgates, Brother

[Eric.]

I agree with Shane but would add the caveat that higher angles are better for long grain and lower angles are better for end grain.  Sharp is the most important, yes, but a higher angle is better for smoothing.  Period.  I have a #4.5 with a middle pitch frog that I use for gnarly grain and final smoothing, and while it can be a bitch to muscle through and will wear you out, it produces finer shavings and significantly less tearout than any of my other planes, all sharpened exactly the same way.

For the record I prefer traditional bench planes because I like the extra weight...just feels better to me.  But low angle planes are more versatile because you can swap out the irons and bevel angles...and therefore make more sense if you're only going to have a couple planes.  Otherwise, flip a coin.

[shaneymack]

Just now, Eric. said:

that higher angles are better for long grain and lower angles are better for end grain

ya, that too. Good point

[Immortan D]

6 minutes ago, shaneymack said:

BS

BS

I guess Shane DID quit the forums and Eric took over his avatar

[shaneymack]

Just now, Immortan D said:

I guess Shane DID quit the forums and Eric took over his avatar

HAHA ! No just disagreeing in a hurry LOL

[Eric.]

You're a JERK, Shane!  You're FIRED!!! LOL

[Llama]

1 hour ago, Immortan D said:

1. BD planes are generally heavier. That, to me, is a huge benefit.

I'll join in... BS! 

There is no benefit to a heavier plane. If you PREFER a heavier plane... great. You lug that crap around. But it has no bearing on performance.

[Immortan D]

1 minute ago, Llama said:

I'll join in... BS! 

There is no benefit to a heavier plane. If you PREFER a heavier plane... great. You lug that crap around. But it has no bearing on performance.

BS

[Eric.]

6 minutes ago, Llama said:

I'll join in... BS! 

There is no benefit to a heavier plane. If you PREFER a heavier plane... great. You lug that crap around. But it has no bearing on performance.

I'll retort...BS!

[Llama]

4 minutes ago, Immortan D said:

BS

 

Just now, Eric. said:

I'll retort...BS!

One of my favorite arguments here

The idea of a heavier plane is just dumb. Absolutely no correlation to performance. I'm sure you think Japanese planes would work better if they were heavier?

I'll put my aluminum BCTW plane against anything you have, and I don't get chatter or tear out. Oh that's not fair... ok, I'll put my LN low angle plane against your BD planes. Bottom line, the weight has nothing to do with performance. If you're arguing preference, that's fine. But don't confuse preference with performance.

[Eric.]

I own both BD and BU, and *in my experience*, *IMO*, plane weight does absolutely have an impact on performance when either taking heavier cuts or powering through gnarly grain.  It also allows me to take a more fluid stroke when planing a long board because the momentum of the heavy plane doesn't have as much tendency to stop while you shift your feet and body position.  It's simply a matter of inertia.

 

 

For the record, I'm not saying the weight makes for better or cleaner cuts...I'm saying it allows me to make better, fluid, more consistent strokes.  "Performance" in the act sense, not the outcome.

@Llama

[Immortan D]

BCTW.... those guys make light, aluminum planes at 5x LN price ONLY to charge you 10x or more for the brass, limited edition version of the same plane, which has the benefit of behaving like a real woodworking plane, as in heavy piece of metal.

 

[Llama]

2 minutes ago, Eric. said:

IMO

BS   

[Llama]

Just now, Immortan D said:

BCTW.... those guys make light, aluminum planes at 5x LN price ONLY to charge you 10x or more for the brass, limited edition version of the same plane, which has the benefit of behaving like a real woodworking plane, as in heavy piece of metal.

 

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!! I wish you knew just once what you were talking about. Just once!! 

[Immortan D]

21 minutes ago, Llama said:

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!! I wish you knew just once what you were talking about. Just once!! 

You're right! I totally underestimated the price! BCTW's $4,222.22 Limited Edition smoother is made of brass, copper and stainless steel. Now that's what I'm talking about, a move in the right direction.

[shaneymack]

 

For the record, I called BS on Daniels 2nd and 3rd points. I agree that the extra weight could be helpful. Inertia is a real thing apparently.

 

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[Llama]

Just now, Immortan D said:

You're right! I totally underestimated the price! BCTW's $4,222.22 Limited Edition smoother is made of brass, copper and stainless steel. Now that's what I'm talking about, a move in the right direction.

I never said they didn't cost more... I said the aluminum (lighter) ones work just fine. The other ones look prettier to some. I have basically the same tool of theirs in brass and aluminum. No difference in cut quality or ease of use. So... why don't you order one and see for yourself? I honestly prefer the aluminum one... so, go figure...

1 minute ago, shaneymack said:

For the record, I called BS on Daniels 2nd and 3rd points. I agree that the extra weight could be helpful. Inertia is a real thing apparently.

Obviously inertia is real. That has to do with preference in using (and how you use) the plane than the actual finished cut quality. Again, performance vs preference. 

[bushwacked]

15 minutes ago, shaneymack said:

For the record, I called BS on Daniels 2nd and 3rd points. I agree that the extra weight could be helpful. Inertia is a real thing apparently.

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

 

 

If you dont believe that then you obviously have not read Erics bed journal  

[BonPacific]

2 hours ago, Ronn W said:

Question 1.  When it comes to smoothing planes is there a practical difference between a #4 with a 45 degree cutting angle and a something like the Veritas Bevel up smoothing plane with a 35 degree blade bevel (47 degress total)?  Both are about the same size.

The only practical difference I can identify is the $2 difference in price from LV

More seriously, the BU is nice if you plan to have multiple blades/irons, as it's a little cheaper than buying multiple frogs, and easier to swap out.

Just now, Llama said:

Obviously inertia is real. That has to do with preference in using (and how you use) the plane than the actual finished cut quality. Again, performance vs preference. 

This is my thought. If you need/want the extra mass to power through a pass, it's probably because you are setting the depth pretty aggressive. So it comes down to your preference in cutting depth affecting your needs on the tool. More passes with thinner shavings and less physical work per pass (lighter plane) or fewer passes with thicker shavings and more physical work per pass (heavier plane). You can move a bit faster with the lighter plane, with less exertion per pass, so I think the time spent planing is going to be comparable. Ultimately it comes back to preference.

I don't have as much experience as some here, but I can say that my LV BU Jack, restored BD #5, and restored transitional Jack will all appear to perform the same when properly sharpened. The BU can take thicker passes than the #5 without catching, but it's much more pleasant to heave around the #5 and Transitional. IMO. Hence my BU Jack tends to get relegated to the shooting board, or stuck in the vice upside down for rounding over small pieces.

[Llama]

Just now, BonPacific said:

Ultimately it comes back to preference.

Agreed. 100%

RE: heavy cuts... There is a good reason a scrub plane is narrow and fairly light. Although most people use those wrong too. oh well...