New Shop Size - is 12'x20' big enough?

[fireball]

Hello all, I'm hoping to get some help and opinions from the folks out there. I have recently moved to a new house and am trying to sort out a new shop. Given some various factors (small lot size, township codes, available funds, etc) it looks like the biggest size I could have for a standalone shop would be 12'x20'. I am considering a manufactured building such as this:

My old shop was 20x35 and plenty big so I don't need something huge. I've been playing around with the Grizzly shop configuration tool and can't seem to find a good layout. I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on whether a 12x20 would do the trick. I am currently thinking that it's a bit too small - although the idea of keeping my tools in storage and not having a shop isn't my favorite idea, I would rather wait until I could build and afford something bigger than to get into something that in the end is too small.

On the other hand, I'm thinking that with a nifty layout and a little forethought that a 12x20 might just do it. I've tried to attach a proposed layout that I did with the Grizzly tool. My primary interests are furniture making and just general putzing around.

FWIW, my big tools are as follows:

PM2000 w/ router lift (pretty sure I'll have to change to a stand alone router table, the TS alone is 85" wide)

Delta dj20 8" jointer

Delta 1.5HP duct collector

Dewalt 735

Miter saw station.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Ben

Ben - shop.pdf

shop.pdf

[Ben H]

I find when trying to layout things, the small tools/supplies you're not thinking of is what bite you in the butt. You've listed your large power tools, and thats good. Ask yourself where you'll put things like:

Handtools (both small and large)

Clamps

Wood

Sheet goods

glue

finish

jigs

harware

blades/bits/ect

This list could grow and grow, but it plants the seed of thought.

But to answer your questions.....NO, it's never big enough

[petersb]

If I had to, I could definately make a 12'x20' shop work. I started out in a space that was about 9'x17' and it was tight, but worked. I had the big stuff on casters to move them around and out onto the driveway to work on nice days.

You could have your tools on mobile bases and rearrange as needed to make space. At least the TS and get that moved out of the way when you are not needing it for long cuts. I don't know what you build, but most of my cuts are less than 4-5' in length and the longer cuts >8' I angle my TS and open the door to run material out.

It can be done, but if you have doubts, wait and get what you need the first time.

[wilburpan]

My basement shop is 11'x20', so if you can't make your shop work, I'm in big trouble.

I find my shop quite workable, but my equipment set up is quite different from yours. I have a 16" bandsaw, two drill presses, a lathe, a 10" jointer/planer combo, a sharpening station, and an 8' workbench. Mobile bases are key.

I also do a lot of stuff with hand tools.

I also have an advantage in that there are places in my basement where I can store shop items outside of the shop area, although I can't really do woodworking in those areas of the basement.

[TheNehlsEnd]

My old shop was 20x36 so I understand what your going through. One of the first things I did when considering the type of building that you are was to figure my work area size in the old shop. My main shop area was 20x20 with the rest of the building for storage. This gave me a square footage of 400 Sq.Ft. work space. I bought a 12x30 which is 360 Sq.Ft. leaving me with a loss of 40 Sq.Ft. for a new shop. This didn't include for any storage space in the shop, fortunately I have a 10x12 shed that I can use for storage. So for me the 12x30 will be big enough for a shop. Depending on what your storage needs are and how many tools you have will determine your size needs. One of the things I specified was that I wanted 8' walls and had the floor insulated. My set up is similar to what your looking at. One of things I wish I had ordered different would have been to had the doors on one end instead of in the middle of the building. This would have made a big difference in how the shop will be laid out. Plan to have it wired this spring so I can't say much for how to layout the shop, still planning that part myself. Hope this helps.

[Keggers]

Hello. My shop is a 30 x 40 and I'm cramped for space. I wish I'd built it larger. I'm sure most everyone will agree that they could use more space.

I get the impression from your post that you are having doubts about the size of your proposed shop since you are downsizing. I'm sure you can make the smaller size work for you, but will you want to expand your woodworking in the future with additional equipment? Perhaps a finishing room? My suggestion is that if you are having doubts about this smaller shop building, wait a week or two before taking the plunge and see how you feel about it then. The bottom line is you can't have enough space. If you have more space, you'll find a use for it. When I was building my shop, I was given similar advice. I was advised to build it bigger than I thought I'd need and I did. And now I wish I'd built it bigger. I know you have limitations on the final dimensions that your shop building can be, but if you can build a bigger one, I'd suggest doing it.

Just my opinion.

[trollusk]

12 x 20 is 150% better than no shop at all.

I tried all the layout tools and finally gave up and simply put all of my heavy tools and benches on wheels. This gives me the ultimate in flexibility.

This way I can figure out what works best in terms of the layout that is most workable and also allows me to change up the layout to match the project and project stages ( i.e. one layout for layout and cutting stock, another for assembly and a another for detail work). It takes a bit of time to rearrange the stuff but the payback is in time saved by having and using a layout that works for the task/ project that you are building at the time.

Key is having lots of outlets at waist height, a good smooth floor and a source for natural light.

Good luck.

Ken

[Bhelart]

I have some experience here. But, first, I agree that a small shop is better than no shop and I also agree with Ben H, think about the small stuff, tool cabinets, wood storage, finishes, fasteners etc.

I moved from a two car garage that had been pretty much occupied by me into a space about the size you mentioned. I had the usual array of tools, Jointer, Portable planer, table saw, band saw, drill press, router table and a lathe. I also had cabinets full of tools, finishes, jigs, accessories etc. I put everything except the large bench and the lathe on wheels. After wrestling with it for a over a year during which time I managed to put out some large and nice projects I gave up, the table saw needs a lot of space, I found that to use it to rip a long plank it had to be dead center in the space or I had to position it so I could use the adjoining garage space for infeed. Cutting 4x8 sheets was nearly impossible so I moved to rough cutting the components outside on saw horses then finishing the cuts on the table saw inside. I was constantly moving tools around, not too bad in the summer but a bit cold in the winter. I finally gave up and sold the table saw. Now I focus on hand tools and smaller projects, I upgraded the band saw to a large Minimax and I use that exclusively now for most of my work although I do a lot of the final cuts by hand.

I ended up making some sketchup models of the space I'd be happy to share with you if that would help.

[fireball]

Thanks to everyone for the replies thus far. A few more questions and comments below on which I'd appreciate feedback:

Badfly: I would love to see the drawings of your space. What you describe about moving things around and never having everything in the right spot is what I want to avoid and what would drive me crazy! I don't mind spending the time to optimize the space, but I'd want to make sure that the big stuff was in place and generally the space worked for me.

Gregn: would love to see your setup. Great idea to have the doors placed on one end rather than in the middle. I'm going to move them around and play around with it. I think it might open up some other options and allow for the jointer to sit adjacent to the TS.

Perhaps I should ask a different question: **if you only had 12x20 to work with, what is the *best* layout you could come up with?** In the grizzly model that I attached, the TS is in the middle of the shop and would be able to run sheet goods through it. Would actually be nice to set the cabinets on the back wall level with the TS so that it would serve as an infeed support.

Another consideration I have is that I am not sure how long we'll be at this current house. While building a 24x30 shop is possible it would cost a lot of money and I'd have to make sure we were here for quite awhile to make the investment worthwhile. The beauty of the 12x20 building is that it can be had right away, doesn't cost much at all (<$3,500 including site prep) and is movable should I want to take it with me if/when we move.

I should also mention that I probably don't subscribe to the "any shop is better than no shop" mentality. I've been a bit spoiled in the past, and spending all my time moving tools around, being frustrated with the space, etc. would really take away from the enjoyment for me.

[dlamulle]

Thanks to everyone for the replies thus far. A few more questions and comments below on which I'd appreciate feedback:

Badfly: I would love to see the drawings of your space. What you describe about moving things around and never having everything in the right spot is what I want to avoid and what would drive me crazy! I don't mind spending the time to optimize the space, but I'd want to make sure that the big stuff was in place and generally the space worked for me.

Gregn: would love to see your setup. Great idea to have the doors placed on one end rather than in the middle. I'm going to move them around and play around with it. I think it might open up some other options and allow for the jointer to sit adjacent to the TS.

Perhaps I should ask a different question: **if you only had 12x20 to work with, what is the *best* layout you could come up with?** In the grizzly model that I attached, the TS is in the middle of the shop and would be able to run sheet goods through it. Would actually be nice to set the cabinets on the back wall level with the TS so that it would serve as an infeed support.

Another consideration I have is that I am not sure how long we'll be at this current house. While building a 24x30 shop is possible it would cost a lot of money and I'd have to make sure we were here for quite awhile to make the investment worthwhile. The beauty of the 12x20 building is that it can be had right away, doesn't cost much at all (<$3,500 including site prep) and is movable should I want to take it with me if/when we move.

I should also mention that I probably don't subscribe to the "any shop is better than no shop" mentality. I've been a bit spoiled in the past, and spending all my time moving tools around, being frustrated with the space, etc. would really take away from the enjoyment for me.

Hmmm, I'd have to go with more room than less. When I had that problem at my other house I went with 2 12x24 buildings side by side which was essentially a 24x24 with more wall space. I framed a small enclosed walkway between the buildings and had my power tools in one and workbench,clamps and hand tools in the other. I used to close the door and could put finish on projects in the bench room and still cut wood in the machine room. It worked well then I sold the two portable buildings when I moved and got most of my money back. Hope this helps.

Dave

[fireball]

I just added another file at the top of the page just called "shop" which has an example layout with the 5' doors placed at the end of the building instead of centered.

[AMarshall]

A 12x20 will be workable, but not grand. This is a little bigger than an old basement shop I used to have, and I am now in a 16x19 garage with a car and a bunch of steel posts. Mobile bases and a willingness to adapt are critical.

As for your sample layouts, this is just my opinion but I would keep the jointer away from the table saw. Having the jointer along the left side of the saw would likely drive me nuts from having to walk around it. I've seen it done before though.

Also, how about putting the planer on a flip-top stand that can roll under one of your counter areas? This keeps it out of the way and saves floor space. I have the DW735 also, and this really saved a lot of space in my shop.

[Bhelart]

Thanks to everyone for the replies thus far. A few more questions and comments below on which I'd appreciate feedback:

Badfly: I would love to see the drawings of your space. What you describe about moving things around and never having everything in the right spot is what I want to avoid and what would drive me crazy! I don't mind spending the time to optimize the space, but I'd want to make sure that the big stuff was in place and generally the space worked for me.

I've attached a sketchup version 8 drawing of my layout. My space is odd shaped, double doors at one end and a small overhead door leading outside near the bandsaw. What you can't see is the walls, every square foot of space is covered with shelves including two strips of french cleats running all the way around the perimeter, one high and one low. In addition to the equipment in this drawing I have a sliding compound miter saw on a fold up mobile base, a portable planer on a mobile cart. Those two things live in the shop and I move them out of the way depending on what work I'm doing. My dust collector and compressor are outside in the garage space with dust collection pipes and air hose coming in through the wall near the jointer. I also have a rack of clamps occupying the wall space by the drill press. In general I'd say I have nearly as much space dedicated to tools and lumber storage as I do to machinery.

shop space 9~.skp

[00101]

Well, like most other people have said so far, see how big you can afford to make it, and then save for another month and build it bigger. But, a small shop can do the job if you're creative, hell, I work in a 6' X 9' shop, absolute hell, but it does get most jobs done.

[WoodClips]

Check out the James' Man Cave Shop Tour on TWW for a look at a 12' x 18' shop layout.

[tim0625]

Fireball,

When i found the Wood whisperer site, I went to every shop tour and looked around just getting ideas. I'd recommend that. My father-in-law was a woodworker and started out in a 10x12 he built himself. Through the years, he added onto the shop many times...it ended up being about 10x40 like a tube but he turned out a lot of nice projects that we still cherish. I'm amazed at what I hear a lot of these guys doing in small spaces. Bottom line, you begin at one place in life and grow. I agree with many - build it bigger than you will possibly need....now. You have these certain tools...Now... but that changes. Your clamp collection is that size, now. You see the point. As you grow, you do begin to think of other things like a finishing room, storage for the 10 sheets of 4x8 or the 50-really nice hardwood 2xs you found at a steal! The guy up the street who is moving and has a nice table saw that you got for $100! Yea! But are you ready to give up the old one? Bigger shop?....use them both for a while and THEN decide which one to sell. In life, I like the word "options". Bigger gives you options. At the very least, if you build it smaller, think of the shop's roof lines and placement on the property so you can expand it later when it's full because brother....if its 50x80, when you're old, it will be full.

Tim

[Mike P.]

Check out the James' Man Cave Shop Tour on TWW for a look at a 12' x 18' shop layout.

Rory,

I was going to recommend this as a good example as well. I am considering James' layout for my future shop. I think having a door on each end would help with long material. I have also thought of adding a 2'by 4' addition to the rear to house the dust collector, saving valuable floor space.

[ChetlovesMer]

Fireball,

When i found the Wood whisperer site, I went to every shop tour and looked around just getting ideas. I'd recommend that. My father-in-law was a woodworker and started out in a 10x12 he built himself. Through the years, he added onto the shop many times...it ended up being about 10x40 like a tube but he turned out a lot of nice projects that we still cherish. I'm amazed at what I hear a lot of these guys doing in small spaces. Bottom line, you begin at one place in life and grow. I agree with many - build it bigger than you will possibly need....now. You have these certain tools...Now... but that changes. Your clamp collection is that size, now. You see the point. As you grow, you do begin to think of other things like a finishing room, storage for the 10 sheets of 4x8 or the 50-really nice hardwood 2xs you found at a steal! The guy up the street who is moving and has a nice table saw that you got for $100! Yea! But are you ready to give up the old one? Bigger shop?....use them both for a while and THEN decide which one to sell. In life, I like the word "options". Bigger gives you options. At the very least, if you build it smaller, think of the shop's roof lines and placement on the property so you can expand it later when it's full because brother....if its 50x80, when you're old, it will be full.

Tim

Great response, Tim.

[fireball]

James' shop is awesome - thanks for sending over the link! I think the key to the layout of a 12'W shop is to layout the TS against the right wall and the jointer against the left wall with a narrow walkway between. That is how James did it and it is also seen here, which is another example of a well-planned, well-executed small shop: http://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDFfree/011160044.pdf

I'm a bit worried with my PM2000 and DJ20 that narrow walkway will be *too* small to pass through comfortably.

Tim, you make a good point that whatever size shop you have, you will likely fill. While that is most likely true, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good thing. There are lots of large shops that are not laid out well and don't make efficient use of space. What I'm trying to figure out is that with a given set of tools and a given goal, is 12x20 too small to make that work. The smaller the shop, the more efficiently space must be used. But there is some point where you have to say that it just simply won't work. Or maybe that is too harsh, but you can say that it just doesn't work well.

After playing around with the Grizzly tool and browsing through lots of shops in the past few days, I think 12x20 (240sf) is right on the borderline. 14x24 or maybe even 14x20 would work a lot better.

Mike P. - great idea about a little alcove/addition that would house the DC. Could build it to also house the air compressor, which would keep those 2 loud items isolated from the rest of the space.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

[Jim DaddyO]

I hope that it is big enough, the one I am dreaming of building is not much bigger (14x20). Still, better than trying to drag the TS out in the snow (which I don't do).

[JayBear]

Im a little late to the party, but I've been working out of a 12x16. My new shop is not complete yet but the little one has served me well over the years.

[fireball]

Jay, welcome to the party. Did you bring some beer?

What kind of tools do you have? Any suggestions on what has or has not worked well in your small space?

I'm still debating if 12x20 is what I want. I can go as big as 14x24 right now but it takes up more precious yard space, costs more and will be a bit more hectic to get into place, but it's also 40% bigger and I think would serve my needs better.

[rmac]

One thing nobody's mentioned in all this is what kind of projects you plan to do. After you have all your tools arranged in whatever space you decide on, you still need some room for whatever you're working on. If you're turning pens and making little boxes, maybe 12x20 is fine. If you're building big tables and cabinets, maybe not. One more thing to think about.

-- Russ

[Bombarde16]

Looking at the building in question, the first thing that I wondered is whether or not the door has to be centered in the long wall. OK, certainly it could be changed; but modifications to a stock building kit usually send the price through the roof.

[WoodClips]

I've spent some time contemplating whether my 12' x 20' garage would make a better space than my current basement shop with its low ceiling, uneven floor and furnace in the middle of everything. As others have mentioned, a lot of it boils down to your personal preferences and how you work. Here are a couple factors that I felt were relevant to my situation:

- My workbench also serves as my assembly table and finishing table. I like to have access to it from all sides, which means 2.5' to 3' minimum aisles. This chews up a lot of space, it it is also the focal point of my shop.

- My contractor table saw has the capacity to cut about 30" to the right of the blade, but I can't remember the last time I used anything close to that much. The table saw really takes up a lot of space in a 12' wide shop, and as painful as it would be, I'd consider cutting down the rails to make it more compact. If I need to cut sheet goods down to size or cut down a glued-up panel, I can do that with my circular saw and a straight edge. Replacing the rails later would be a lot cheaper than buying an extra X feet of building you can't really afford.

- I decided that I would like the ability to joint, plane and rip eight foot long boards, so I drew in eight foot rectangles on both sides of the respective machines to make sure I was leaving enough space. I've been doing a lot of remodeling lately and find myself working with eight foot pieces of trim on a regular basis. If I was strictly building furniture in my shop, I think I could probably get away with less.

- While all my tools are on wheels, I really like the idea of having everything in fixed locations with dust collection and power hooked up. It is a real drag to have to haul out the benchtop planer or move things around to mill a single board. I've dealt with this scenario for a number of years in small shop spaces and I find it really frustrating. I've come pretty close to finding a fixed location for everything in the attached shop layout, with the exception of the planer, which needs to get wheeled a foot or so into the aisle.

- When I'm buying lumber, I usually buy 50-100bdft at a time so I dedicated 10' on one wall to lumber storage. One major concern with a shop this size is finding a place to store scraps and odd boards. One option might be a wood burning stove in one corner.

- I don't really use my miter saw that much for furniture projects, so I wouldn't allocate a dedicated space to it. In the event that I needed it, I'd set it up on a collapsible miter saw stand, which also provides work support.

- I didn't include my drill press in the layout, but it sits on a cabinet with lockable casters. I don't really use it that often, so I would tuck it away in a corner and then pull it out when I needed it. I also have a oscillating spindle sander that would get similar treatment.

- I would plan on building storage cabinets under the table saw outfeed table, under the table behind the workbench, and on the left wall. The planer, drill press and spindle sander also sit on cabinets with drawers. Combined, I feel like this amount of storage is roughly equivalent to what I'm using in my current shop.

- I measured my garage and it is about 11' 4" on the inside (12' on the outside). The aisle down the center of the shop is about 3' (assuming I don't cut down my table saw rails), which is pretty tight. This is where going from a 12' building to 14' is going to make a huge difference. A five foot aisle is going to be much more comfortable to work in. Three feet is going to feel cramped (I currently have about this much to the left of my table saw, and it is totally adequate for working with the saw, but it would make for a cramped center aisle down the middle of the shop).

In conclusion, I feel like a 12' x 20' shop is definitely a space I could work with. It should be possible to lay out the major tools with little or no rearranging required to use them for boards up to eight feet long. Material, tool and supply storage should be adequate. It will probably feel a little cramped, but keeping it clean, organized and well-lit will help combat that. In my own situation, I'm still on the fence about how it compares to my current space and whether I'd be better off sitting tight until I can afford something bigger.

Rory