What to get for mortise and tennons?

[Nick2cd]

I'm pretty new to woodworking. i have made several end grain cutting boards and everyone loves them, but i think it's time to up my game. i need to start developing my skill-set. i want to start making mortise and tennon joints and building some furniture. so, what is the best tool for the job? i don't have a drill press, so this could be a good excuse to buy one. or, should i go with a hollow chisel mortiser? or should i find an edge guide for my router and try to make them that way? i know with the router and drill press, i will have to clean up the edges with chisels.

[Vic]

I'm pretty new to woodworking. i have made several end grain cutting boards and everyone loves them, but i think it's time to up my game. i need to start developing my skill-set. i want to start making mortise and tennon joints and building some furniture. so, what is the best tool for the job? i don't have a drill press, so this could be a good excuse to buy one. or, should i go with a hollow chisel mortiser? or should i find an edge guide for my router and try to make them that way? i know with the router and drill press, i will have to clean up the edges with chisels.

Unless you want to have through tenons, you don't need to square the ends of the mortises. I'm a huge fan of slip, or loose tenons. I'd say go the router method. You'll find a lot of tutorials on router mortising jigs. Just google it.

[ddg]

Nick,

I have a drill press attachment and found that it was just as fast to use a Forstner bit and chisel by the time I was cleaning up the variation left from the attachment. I was having a slight twisting of the chisel holding assembly (not the chisel) as I moved down the mortise.

I assume a dedicated mortise machine would have eliminated any twisting, but I didn’t buy a one because of a space issue. If space and money were not an issue, I’d have a floor model.

I’ve done the edge guide on the router with good results, but you are trying to balance on narrow surfaces. I’ve built jigs to route mortises and they have worked OK. I finally picked up the MortisePal, and wish I’d done it years ago. I use it for loose and integral tenon work.

Since you already have a drill press, I would suggest you first make a few mortises using drill bits and chisels. This will let you see first hand what is involved in making the mortise, and help you evaluate what method you want to use. You will also see what will be involved to when you want to square a mortise if you decide to go with a router.

Good luck.

Doug

[Don Z.]

I can't say enough about Shannon's Hand Tool School...

[Bobby Slack]

I second Vic. If the M&T will not be seen, why not just do a slip tenon which has a lot of margin for error and also you can hone your skills ... some claim is even stronger than a M&T ... may be not. This is what I use.

Unless you want to have through tenons, you don't need to square the ends of the mortises. I'm a huge fan of slip, or loose tenons. I'd say go the router method. You'll find a lot of tutorials on router mortising jigs. Just google it.

[Nick2cd]

Nick,

I have a drill press attachment and found that it was just as fast to use a Forstner bit and chisel by the time I was cleaning up the variation left from the attachment. I was having a slight twisting of the chisel holding assembly (not the chisel) as I moved down the mortise.

I assume a dedicated mortise machine would have eliminated any twisting, but I didn’t buy a one because of a space issue. If space and money were not an issue, I’d have a floor model.

I’ve done the edge guide on the router with good results, but you are trying to balance on narrow surfaces. I’ve built jigs to route mortises and they have worked OK. I finally picked up the MortisePal, and wish I’d done it years ago. I use it for loose and integral tenon work.

Since you already have a drill press, I would suggest you first make a few mortises using drill bits and chisels. This will let you see first hand what is involved in making the mortise, and help you evaluate what method you want to use. You will also see what will be involved to when you want to square a mortise if you decide to go with a router.

Good luck.

Doug

wow, i started looking into this Mortise pal and it looks AWESOME! i am seriously considering it. i have a couple questions regarding this jig..... 1) do you make your own tenon stock or do you buy the pre-made stuff that they sell? 2)does it come with a router bit or do you have to purchase that seperately?

[Bobby Slack]

Depends. for small stuff I use the Domino made by Festool. For big stuff I make my own floating tenon and I adjust the tenon to the size of the mortise. Right now i am building gates using a 5/8" floating tenon. So they were made at my shop with a table saw and a lunchbox planer. I would love to have a jointer but I don't have it right now.

wow, i started looking into this Mortise pal and it looks AWESOME! i am seriously considering it. i have a couple questions regarding this jig..... 1) do you make your own tenon stock or do you buy the pre-made stuff that they sell? 2)does it come with a router bit or do you have to purchase that seperately?

[JimB1]

I have a Delta hollow chisel mortiser. It's pretty much a one-trick pony and is heavy to move around but it does that one trick pretty good. If you do a lot of M&T joints it works very well.

If you don't do many mortise and tenon joints, the cheapest way is to hog it out with a drill or brace and clean it up with a chisel. That's how I used to do it before getting the Delta.

-Jim

[jab73180]

theres another mortise jig around that uses your drill. the name escapes me but it looked decent. jess em makes it maybe. i would make your own stock. just strips the right width and round it over to match what ever bit you use.

[Nick2cd]

Depends. for small stuff I use the Domino made by Festool. For big stuff I make my own floating tenon and I adjust the tenon to the size of the mortise. Right now i am building gates using a 5/8" floating tenon. So they were made at my shop with a table saw and a lunchbox planer. I would love to have a jointer but I don't have it right now.

festool dominos will fit in the mortises created by this jig? which size dominos will fit?

[ronnie]

I'm pretty new to woodworking. i have made several end grain cutting boards and everyone loves them, but i think it's time to up my game. i need to start developing my skill-set. i want to start making mortise and tennon joints and building some furniture. so, what is the best tool for the job? i don't have a drill press, so this could be a good excuse to buy one. or, should i go with a hollow chisel mortiser? or should i find an edge guide for my router and try to make them that way? i know with the router and drill press, i will have to clean up the edges with chisels.

Fast and easy way: Buy a kreg kit/jig....

Easy as one two three..............

[Nick2cd]

Fast and easy way: Buy a kreg kit/jig....

Easy as one two three..............

i have a kreg jig. i haven't used it yet. i think it definitely has it's place, but i think i need a good mortise/tenon system as well. i want to be able to completely hide the joinery. i really like the idea of this Mortise Pal. im really curious to hear which size dominos will work with which size router bit/mortise pal template.

[sancho]

Depends on what you want to use them for. I know this is woodworking blasphemy but for M&T , Router, But there are other alternatives such as pocket hole joiner check out the Kreg Jig. Also look into a Biscuit jointer

[Pete Bennett]

For over forty years I made all my mortices by hand. A drill followed by mortice chisels and elbow grease. I now have a dedicated mortice machine that weighs around 800lbs. But I make a lot of mortice and tenon joints some quite large.

If you're only planning on a few mortices I'd start by doing them by hand. (A) It's much cheaper and (B)it is the only way you will get to grasp the real principles of the joint. Loose tenons certainly have their place and in joints at an angle where short grain issues arise they are superior. I do however question the claim that they are stronger. I can see a case for this if using a relatively thin soft wood frame with say an Oak loose tenon, but otherwise I'm not convinced.

I have never tried the domino so cannot comment here but I have tried using biscuits. They are definitely not good enough as a tenon. They have their uses in alignment of planks, although I prefer feather jointing. It's much stronger and easier to do.

There are so many 'modern' ways of doing traditional things it can be confusing and equally it can lead to disasters, some not always apparent until later. There was recently a very good debate in an English Magazine concerning our now universal acceptance of super strong adhesives and how we can easily make the mistake of believing a slack joint can be cured by their use. The general prognosis being that a good joint particularly a mortice and tenon should not rely on the strength of the adhesive. Try making a good tight but sliding mortice and tenon and assembling it dry then using either fox tail wedges or a good drawer peg to pull it up tight and you will be amazed how strong this is and furthermore it is quite likely to be that way for hundreds of years.

Having said all that I use my mortice machine to make the mortice and my Band saw to cut the tenons. However, I still use hand tools for the fine tuning and fitting.

It's really a case of trying what suits you best coupled to how many joints you are likely to make. I know that once you get beyond the one or two a month stage you'll be mechanized in one way or another.

Best of luck

[wilburpan]

For over forty years I made all my mortices by hand. A drill followed by mortice chisels and elbow grease. I now have a dedicated mortice machine that weighs around 800lbs. But I make a lot of mortice and tenon joints some quite large.

If you're only planning on a few mortices I'd start by doing them by hand. (A) It's much cheaper and (B)it is the only way you will get to grasp the real principles of the joint.

I'd go further and say that even if you were going to make a lot of M/T joints, buy a 1/4" mortise chisel and make them by hand using that method first, to really understand how these joints are supposed to work. Then get a mortising machine/mortising attachment for your drill press/Domino/etc. If you buy a Ray Iles mortise chisel from Tools For Working Wood, you'll be able to sell it for close to what you bought it for, which means that you'll have spent less than $10 for the "lesson".

If chopping a mortise by hand seems like too much work, it's a lot easier than you think.

http://blip.tv/play/gcoz4Y4kAg%2Em4v

[Vermont Carpentry]

Nick,

I use the Leigh FMT and am pleased by the results.

Mark

[Pete Bennett]

I'd go further and say that even if you were going to make a lot of M/T joints, buy a 1/4" mortise chisel and make them by hand using that method first, to really understand how these joints are supposed to work. Then get a mortising machine/mortising attachment for your drill press/Domino/etc. If you buy a Ray Iles mortise chisel from Tools For Working Wood, you'll be able to sell it for close to what you bought it for, which means that you'll have spent less than $10 for the "lesson".

If chopping a mortise by hand seems like too much work, it's a lot easier than you think.

http://blip.tv/play/gcoz4Y4kAg%2Em4v

Some vid. Crude but effective. I guess doing it against glass is not an easy option. I have to agree with him concerning the 'Swan Neck' chisel. I still use mine quite often when making some of the bigger table mortices. Thanks for showing us.

Pete

[Rick LoDico]

I've used the drill press and table saw jig as well as my hollow mortiser and table saw jig. The fastest and most idiot proof is with the FMT. Great clean perfect fitting m & t parts.

http://i165.photobuc.../DSCF0027-1.jpg

[Vermont Carpentry]

Rick,

"Idiot proof": now you know why I bought it! Yes I went the hand cutting way, table saw, router table but found the most consistent was the Leigh.

Mark

[ddg]

Nick,

I got a free pack of their 1 3/8” tenon stock with a 3/8” bit. It only works with their 1” template using their 3/8” bit. All their tenon stock only works with the 1” template. It’s quick and easy. I’ll use it until it’s gone and then just make that size like I do with all the other sizes.

You will have to buy the router bits separately from the jig. When I got my jig, MortisePal was giving a discount on the bits if you got them at the same time.

There are a couple of other options I’ve found since I picked up their bits:

Carbideprocessors.com - $36 for the same 1/2" bit

Woodworkersworld.net - $40 for the 1/2" bit (free shipping with orders >$29)

Doug

[Nick2cd]

Nick,

I got a free pack of their 1 3/8” tenon stock with a 3/8” bit. It only works with their 1” template using their 3/8” bit. All their tenon stock only works with the 1” template. It’s quick and easy. I’ll use it until it’s gone and then just make that size like I do with all the other sizes.

You will have to buy the router bits separately from the jig. When I got my jig, MortisePal was giving a discount on the bits if you got them at the same time.

There are a couple of other options I’ve found since I picked up their bits:

Carbideprocessors.com - $36 for the same 1/2" bit

Woodworkersworld.net - $40 for the 1/2" bit (free shipping with orders >$29)

Doug

this may sound stupid, but why can't you use a 1/4" straight bit or 3/8" straight bit? i know the up spiral would bring the chippings out more effeciently, but is this possible otherwise?

[PaulMarcel]

-snip- There was recently a very good debate in an English Magazine concerning our now universal acceptance of super strong adhesives and how we can easily make the mistake of believing a slack joint can be cured by their use. -snip-

Now, now... no picking on Bobby

I use a Domino, but before I had that, I used a router and -ghads- a plungable straight bit. For big mortises, I'd use a router over a Domino although an array of Dominos is faster to plunge than unpacking the router.

For Nick's question, a plungable straight bit works, but the chip clearing can be an issue. Suction from a DC hose above the hole won't lift out the chips unless air is coming into the hole; with the router base over the hole mortise, you only get clearing from 'turbulence'. Why it's bad is because the chips that stay in there get hot; they also get in the way. Sure the bit will move them, but it's like that chicklets game where you scoot around numbered tiles... with each router pass, it has to throw the chips to the open area. When I did mine with a plungable straight bit, those were the issues. Maybe I was doing something wrong. YMMV.

[Nick2cd]

Now, now... no picking on Bobby

I use a Domino, but before I had that, I used a router and -ghads- a plungable straight bit. For big mortises, I'd use a router over a Domino although an array of Dominos is faster to plunge than unpacking the router.

For Nick's question, a plungable straight bit works, but the chip clearing can be an issue. Suction from a DC hose above the hole won't lift out the chips unless air is coming into the hole; with the router base over the hole mortise, you only get clearing from 'turbulence'. Why it's bad is because the chips that stay in there get hot; they also get in the way. Sure the bit will move them, but it's like that chicklets game where you scoot around numbered tiles... with each router pass, it has to throw the chips to the open area. When I did mine with a plungable straight bit, those were the issues. Maybe I was doing something wrong. YMMV.

Paul,

since you have gone both routes (router and domino), which do you recommend? i originally thought getting the Mortise Pal would be the most cost effective/accurate way to go. however, now im starting to add some things up and im not so sure it's going to be all that huge of a savings. for example, here are my costs for mortise pal

1. Mortise Pal $200 +shipping

2. Mortise Pal accessories (doweling jig, spiral bits, extra template sizes) $100

3. New 1/2" collet router (i like the new bosch) $350

Total $650 close in cost to the domino. so, Paul, what do you recommend out of the two?

[Pete Bennett]

Now, now... no picking on Bobby

I use a Domino, but before I had that, I used a router and -ghads- a plungable straight bit. For big mortises, I'd use a router over a Domino although an array of Dominos is faster to plunge than unpacking the router.

For Nick's question, a plungable straight bit works, but the chip clearing can be an issue. Suction from a DC hose above the hole won't lift out the chips unless air is coming into the hole; with the router base over the hole mortise, you only get clearing from 'turbulence'. Why it's bad is because the chips that stay in there get hot; they also get in the way. Sure the bit will move them, but it's like that chicklets game where you scoot around numbered tiles... with each router pass, it has to throw the chips to the open area. When I did mine with a plungable straight bit, those were the issues. Maybe I was doing something wrong. YMMV.

Well now, it just depends on what joints Bobby likes.

[PaulMarcel]

If you already have a router and need mortises today, there you go.

The Domino is ridiculously nice to use; while it is still more than the Mortise Pal (with which I have no experience), I don't think you can beat the Domino's speed and accuracy. Speed-wise, I mortised, glued, and assembled my flip-top miter stand in 27 minutes (but I was trying ) Wish some other projects went that quickly...

The caveat is always that the Domino is expensive, but as you pointed out, the Mortise Pal is already getting up there.

I also only used the router for mortises on a few occasions; having the right bit would have made a big difference. Knowing how to do them with the router is still pretty useful. For example, tonight I'm mortising a couple industrial doors for door closer... they are oddly-shaped mortises that are about 34 cu in in size; a router and template are about the only decent way to do these.

I did a video review of the Domino a couple weeks ago. Goes into a bunch of different aspects. It's not to sell you on it, but rather explain it. With pricy tools, you need to see more than the marketing shpeal.