Elroy Skimms Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 First, let me be clear here. I'm calling this a Greene & Greene "Inspired" design in the loosest definition of the word inspired. If you want to see what a real Greene & Greene inspired masterpiece looks like, let me direct your attention to @gee-dub's thread over here. @Lester Burnham is working on a project pulling some G & G elements from gee-dub as well, you can find that journal here. I love all things Greene & Greene, Stickly, and in general, most designs in the Craftsman, Arts & Crafts, and Prairie School period. Unfortunately, I lack the skills needed to pull off a proper Greene & Greene piece at the moment, and a proper G & G end table wouldn't match some of the other furniture in the family room, so I'm only incorporating a few G & G elements into the design. There are some cloud lift details scattered throughout, the lower shelf is tsuba-esque, rafter tails extend to support the table top (I took this element from Darrel Peart who in turn pulled it from the Brothers Greene), and the traditional G & G oversized finger joints on the drawer box. While not shown in the drawing below, I will be borrowing the drawer pull from gee-dub's dresser, which in turn came from The Freeman Ford House. This will be my 2nd project made from all hardwoods. With the exception of a writing desk last year, my furniture projects have all been painted Baltic birch ply. Paint covers a multitude of woodworking sins, and I am the chief of woodworking sinners. Without further adieu, here is the initial design (sans gee-dub's handle) and enough Cherry lumber for 3 tables. I hope to keep my screw-ups to a minimum and get 1 finished table from this material. Also, that's not my shop. I wish it were though. -E 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 Cool looking design, bit won't those rafter thingies be catching on every shin / kneecap that walks by? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 I just want to know why you have a shop vac attached to your DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said: Cool looking design, bit won't those rafter thingies be catching on every shin / kneecap that walks by? They do stick out about an inch beyond the pedestal base, but looking at our current end tables, the top sticks out about the same distance without any busted knee caps. Compared to an earlier iteration, I added some width to the tabletop to keep the rafter tails from the corners for this very reason. 1 minute ago, Llama said: I just want to know why you have a shop vac attached to your DC. It's not my shop, belongs to a friend of mine. He has the DC connected to the table saw base and the shop vac connected to the guard. Both are wired to the same switch. It seems to work really well. -E 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 That's a good looking shop you got there, Elroy. Let's see more. Edit: Nevermind. LOL Gotta agree with Ross that those cloudlift thingamajiggers are gonna cause you trouble. I think the design could do without them visually, too, to be honest...already a lot going on there. Maybe at least try a sketchup without them just to see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 I would make the top a little bigger so it sits over the rafter tails. But it does look like the Gamble House roof & rafter tails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 9 minutes ago, Eric. said: That's a good looking shop you got there, Elroy. Let's see more. Edit: Nevermind. LOL Gotta agree with Ross that those cloudlift thingamajiggers are gonna cause you trouble. I think the design could do without them visually, too, to be honest...already a lot going on there. Maybe at least try a sketchup without them just to see? I've had a couple different versions of this design floating around for about a year now. I didn't save all the variations but ultimately settled on the rafter tails after seeing Darrel Peart's tables. -E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 Yeah I guess it's just me then. I don't care for the look of it nor the implications of inconvenience. But it's your piece...cloudlift away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 The cloud lift shapes cut into all 4 sides of Darrels top do minimumize the tails sticking out visually . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 6 minutes ago, wdwerker said: minimumize That's great! My new favorite word. Can't wait to use it. And good point...it does look better that way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dknapp34 Posted August 10, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 Take this with a grain of salt because I don't really like G&G that much, but to my eye the design has too much going on. If it were me, I would lose the feet and beef up the legs so they were square. Sort of like Darrel Peart's table legs. The more G&G design elements you throw into one piece, the more you risk the whole thing looking cluttered and the design elements lose their visual appeal. Less is more. But, as I said G&G is not really my thing, so I'm probably not the best judge. All that said, I'm excited to see how this one turns out! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 I appreciate all the feedback. @wdwerker An early version of this design had 2 rafter tails on each side, not just 2 front and back. I went back to that revision and replaced the breadboard top. I see your point about it minimizing the appearance of the tails sticking out, but I'm not all that thrilled with the new top. I had to make the top several inches wider to accommodate the cloud lift on the ends and that puts the top almost 6" beyond the feet on each side. That's too much overhang for my taste, at least for such a small table. As to @Dknapp34 and others who think it's a bit cluttered with too many elements, you are not wrong on that one. Earlier versions had 4 rafters. I removed 2 of the rafters in an effort to de-clutter it a bit. I might need to de-clutter a little more. I like the square post legs, but my last project had those and I wanted to try something different. I may need to revisit that. As far as progress on the project, I'm learning how to route with templates, especially around the end grain. I've already run into issues with tearout on the pedestals. I won't rehash it all here, but you can find the details and the suggestions from the community in this thread over here. Needless to say I'm getting a crash course in how not to route end grain Once the parts are finished, I'll get started on the mortise & tenon joinery before giving everything a roundover. -E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 Don't make the top bigger, make the base a little narrower . But seeing how many parts you have cut design changes at this point are much more difficult. Everyone of us is tossing out opinions but the piece of furniture will live in your house. So if you like it then go for it ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dknapp34 Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 Steve's right. I'm only making suggestions based on my own personal taste. If you are happy with the design, then that is really all that matters. Looks like you are making good progress so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 On 8/10/2016 at 11:31 AM, wdwerker said: Don't make the top bigger, make the base a little narrower . But seeing how many parts you have cut design changes at this point are much more difficult. You vastly overestimate my skills. The parts pictured have already been destroyed in my attempt to learn how to route end grain I've cut replacements for those and already destroyed one of the new ones last night. Nothing I do at this stage will survive to the finished product, so making design changes is still very easy. I wasn't joking when I said I have enough wood for 3 tables and I hope to get one finished table from it. I'm a learn as I go kind of guy. As to the suggestion of making the base a little narrower, I drew that up before drawing the top wider. The narrow version left the bottom shelf unable to fit a piece of Letter sized paper, let alone a laptop, so I didn't bother to export an image from SketchUp. -E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 Oh I fully understand the design problems of balancing esthetics and functionality . The final result has to fit into the prescribed space and accommodate the nessacary items while looking snazzy and containing features that are within your ability to execute ! Its a tall order that forces compromise . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee-dub Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 This is a journey I'm glad to be able to tag along on. To your template routing challenges, I know methods have been discussed in the other thread . . . A real trouble spot is the full-on end grain at the tip of a narrow radius rounded end piece. A viable method is to stop just short of this spot when routing downhill toward it from each long grain edge and then finishing the tip off with a rasp or even a sanding block. Whenever I feel I am getting caught up in the "right" way to do things I recall something someone said that I agree with . . . don't we all do this to some degree? At any rate, Sam Maloof lived in the next community over from me so I grew up hearing things that dad might have heard or read about Sam saying. I will mutilate the exact phrase but, he would say something to the effect of "the best way to do something is the way that you can get it done". I also hear things in my head when I am working like him saying to his helpers "leave room for the glue!" and I will always fall back on the fact that he used a drywall rasp for roughing out forms whenever someone insists on the "right" tool or method for accomplishing a task. You will find what works for you and if you are getting the result you are after . . . you just found the "right" way. I will caution you to remain open minded though. I used a labor intensive method of shaping certain parts until a couple of visiting forum members pushed me to try something they suggested. I now get the result I am after in half the time. Find you own path but, be sure to keep looking around for other ways that may be of interest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Now that my adventures in end grain routing have come to an end, I'm back to working on the project itself. I have the pedestals, rafters, and supports cut and sanded with an oscillating spindle sander. I also have at least 1 extra of each part because, well, this ain't my first rodeo and I know I will need them. Before I put a roundover on everything I wanted to get the mortise and tenons worked out. My previous M&T work was less than adequate and I needed a new technique. @treeslayer posted something somewhere showing a jig for routing mortises with a plunge router & template guide. I had seen this before a while ago but had forgotten all about it. I grabbed a test piece (ie: I destroyed something learning to route end grain and I can safely use it for M&T practice) and marked off a few spots to try and get everything dialed in. I picked up a spiral upcut bit from Lowes for my Craftsman handheld router and took the plunge (These are the jokes, folks). I have to say, that Irwin spiral bit was obnoxiously loud. I've got a 2.2kw CNC spindle in my garage and even with a combination up/down cutter running at 20k RPM, it's not nearly as loud as that little Irwin spiral bit. Ear protection next time, that's for sure. Apparently I didn't need the extra practice, this jig is foolproof. Squared up the corners real quick with a chisel and BAM, dead-nuts accurate mortise. No muss, no fuss, just bleeding ear drums. Tonight and tomorrow will (hopefully) see the mortises and tenons cut into the production parts, and maybe the ringing in my ears will be gone too. -E 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Glad your making progress again ! Keep those ruined parts and use them for finish testing. Sand them just like all the parts being used. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dknapp34 Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Nice progress! That also is my preferred method for routing mortises when I have a bunch of identical ones to route. I did over 100 of them on an outdoor table recently using an mdf jig like that and a bearing guided bit. It's pretty foolproof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, wdwerker said: Glad your making progress again ! Keep those ruined parts and use them for finish testing. Sand them just like all the parts being used. Great idea. I have very little experience with non-painted finishes, it always looks to me like 75% sorcery and 35% luck. I have a friend who was trying to match an odd greenish stain (sort of brown, sort of copper patina). He pulls out his cans of dye and adds a little of this, a little of that, and on his first attempt he nailed it. Sorcery I tell you! -E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 I had a few hours in the garage on Saturday before the heat became unbearable. I started out using my table saw to set the depth of the tenons before cleaning them up with my router table. The table saw did a much better job on the edge for reducing tearout compared to the router. By the end of the run, I had switched to using the dado stack to remove finish the tenons as it was much faster. Also, does anyone have any tips for removing blood stains from Cherry? At some point I removed some skin on my hand and didn't realize until I saw sine red marks on all of the material. Oops! I noticed that when the mortises were done, it wasn't perfectly centered in the jig. You can see it's shifted a little to the left in the picture below. My guess is that my template guide isn't perfectly centered in the router base plate. The guide came with a centering cone but I probably didn't use it correctly. I'll dig into that for the next project. My previous attempt at mortise & tenon joinery was pretty awful. I was pleasantly surprised to find that this attempt came out less than 1/32" away from where I wanted them to be. For me, that's a win. I started up on the through-tenons for the shelf and drawer supports, but I put the bulk of the work off for Sunday. Unfortunately the weatherman promised an afternoon rainstorm to cool things off, but the rain never materialized. So I never made it out to the garage on Sunday. -E 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Truth In Advertising http://furnituremaker.com/using-the-hollow-square-punches/ Darrell Peart worked with Lee Valley tools to make a set of square hollow punches for knocking out square mortises. They looked simple enough and the results that Darrell posted looked great. I picked up the 1/2" punch and gave it a shot. Lee Valley said use a brad-point bit, Darrell said use a twist because a brad-point will damage the inside of the punch. Darrell used a steel hammer, Lee Valley said steel will damage the punch, so use a mallet. To avoid damaging anything I used a twist bit and and a rubber mallet. Let's just say my results were less than stellar. Brand new punch, wouldn't cut through the cherry. If I tried to be more aggressive with the hammer, the wood fibers started to smash instead of slice, and things started to crack because I was close to the edge of the board. In the end, I was able to use the corners of the punch as registration marks and clean it out with a 1/2" chisel. So the punch was helpful in that regard, but it really didn't turn out as advertised. Speaking of things not working as advertised, my 6-month old Triton TRA001 decided to crap out on me when I was trying to clean up the tenons on these parts. The On/Off switch decided to stop turning the router on. A new one should be here by the end of the week, but I was hoping to get this table done by the 1st week of September. That's not looking very likely at this rate. -E 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 You need to give the punch a few taps just to seat it securely, then excavate the material with the drill bit, then go back to driving the punch. If you don't excavate the material with the drill bit first, the waste has nowhere to go and you won't be able to penetrate. That punch should have no trouble at all making its way through cherry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Skimms Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 So you are saying it's user error? I'll give this a shot on the 2nd set of supports and see how it goes. -E EDIT: @Eric I've gone back and re-read your post. This is actually what I did in the first place. The hole with the proper sized drill bit was drilled before attempting to drive the punch through the material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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