Chuck Melton Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 The season is changing and the environment is actually tolerable in my garage workshop again. This has given me a kick in the but to get back out there, and continue my plunge into woodworking. I am fairly set in terms of powertools, and I've been building my handtool collection but I have neglected to buy decent saws. The price on the Veritas stuff isn't exorbitant, and it's the way I am leaning (a pair of carcass saws and a dovetail saw). While the ~$200 won't break the bank, if there is another brand to consider that would do just as well considering my current lack of skill, I'd love to hear about it. I am also thinking I can probably skip the rip carcass saw as those operations would very likely be done on the table saw. As always, thanks for your advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 I love my veritas dovetail saw, if that helps Great quality and price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilburpan Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 If you're not committed to western saws, $200 will be more than enough to buy a few disposable blade Japanese saws. A 210mm or 240mm ryoba could take the place of your pair of carcass saws, and a rip tooth dozuki makes a really nice dovetail saw. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Hello Chuck, The new avatar is awesome . As far as western saws go I think Sam's advice is very good indeed. I personally think Veritas back saws, plough & skew rabbet plane are very attractive tools although some of the other ones look a bit odd (although no doubt still awesome tools). I picked up a couple of "new unused" PAX saws from ebay and although no everyone is a fan I was reasonably pleased with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 If money matters, buy something with a decent handle off ebay such as: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Keen-Kutter-Back-Saw-/161091166476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2581c8210c You can find better and fancier any day on ebay, including great ones with new blades, sharpened ready to go. Search for "backsaw" and you will find hundreds in the size you want, and get a replacement blade from Wenzloff. They will cut the teeth you want, and even sharpen it for you, but call for availability. They're always behind on orders. Rather than being a purist to the point of wearing Lindsey-Woolsey underwear, I glue the blade in the back with golf club epoxy. It breaks down easily with heat if you need to remove it, just like removing a golf club head, and helps prevent bends in the blade by not allowing it to slip in the back. http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/component/virtuemart/saw-kits-and-parts/saw-parts/saw-blade-steel.html I couldn't believe it when I saw new ones for sale for 250 with plastic handles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Melton Posted September 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. I think with all of the used tools I have acquired, it might be nice to get some new stuff. Some Narex chisels might make it into the shopping cart while I am on Lee Valley as well... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 +1 For Narex. I have been pleased with my 1/2" mortice chisel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Not sure I would consider it a "starter" saw, but I absolutely love my Lie-Nielsen saws. I hear good things about other makers as well, but that is my vote 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Don't look at me, I got a Bad Axe and it's like saw crack. Beautiful and cuts like a dream. I have heard good things about the LV but the design and handle just don't strike me as they'd be comfortable to saw with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 The thing about saws is that once you learn how to sharpen saws, a whole range of very affordable alternatives open up. Handsaws and backsaws are quite affordable when not sharp. Most vintage saw plates were made by three or four makers, all good steel, and mostly taper ground, not done so much nowadays. Even no name Warren and Ted Superior saws will cut wood like butter when sharpened properly. Sharpening saws is a skill, like any other, and worth learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 The thing about saws is that once you learn how to sharpen saws, a whole range of very affordable alternatives open up. Handsaws and backsaws are quite affordable when not sharp. Most vintage saw plates were made by three or four makers, all good steel, and mostly taper ground, not done so much nowadays. Even no name Warren and Ted Superior saws will cut wood like butter when sharpened properly. Sharpening saws is a skill, like any other, and worth learning. I agree with that entirely. I think the same thing applies to planes. I have always expected the reason so many people are willing to pay multiple times the price of an old one is that they don't know how to sharpen one. Most raving reviews include how the new ones work so well right out of the box. My backsaw toolbox is full of old backsaws that I doubt I paid over 35 bucks for any of. My handsaw boxes are full of handsaws that were either purchased new when you could still buy new taper ground ones for 35 bucks, or old ones in good shape other than being dull and thus sold cheap. I won't even start on molding planes that cost $250+ new, when I can get the same results out of ones I bought off of ebay for 15 bucks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 Tom, I resemble that remark - D'oh. I've actually thought about getting another rip saw from LN because my wonderful D8 rip is getting dull just because I know I can send it back to Maine to get it sharpened. Fortunately folks have encouraged me and I got the files I need and watched several videos (multiple times) so now I'm going to get it attempt to sharpen it soon. What Tom and Admiral have said is very, very true from my humble and inexperienced point of view because I've optimized what they said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 Not sure that I agree entirely. Even the nice handplanes and saws need to be resharpened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 That's true Mel, but speaking for myself as a newish woodworker, I spent a lot of money on new tools (especially saws) because I wanted to delay having to learn to sharpen and being afraid I'd screw it up. My big concern was that 'rehabing' a vintage saw would be to big and complicated a job - i.e. that the condition would be beyond a beginner sharpener's ability to fix. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 Not sure that I agree entirely. Even the nice handplanes and saws need to be resharpened. What! They don't do it them selves, send em back . Saw sharpening is not something I have tried but it is on the to do list. On planes anything above a #5 when buying blind on metal planes is a gamble if my limited experience is anything to go by. Flattening a sole of a #4 and tuning it up was OK but I much prefer working the wood. I think for me that vintage is cool is you can spot that peachy tool that needs maybe an hour or so on it. I love this but I don't enjoy the process enough to want to spend days on it like that guy did. Once I had tuned up the #4 a sat back and thought to myself if I had done some overtime instead of refurbing it I could of just bought a WoodRiver US/Quangsheng UK #4 and into the bargain had a nice thick blade, bedrock design, thick cap iron and the ability to return it if it was a duff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkirby Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 I've gone a bit mad and plumped for a Ron Bontz rubo saw. 3 month waiting list at the moment, wonder how long Lui takes with his hand saws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 ==> I've been building my handtool collection but I have neglected to buy decent saws. So you don't end-up with ten saws, what are you intending to saw? You mention a dovetail saw, so I'm assuming dovetails... The progressive pitch dovetail saw is a nice option... With a dovetail saw selected, then your next choice should be the your general cross-cut and rip saws... If you're going to hand-cut M&Ts, then the rip tenon would be your next choice (I use the 16"). If your not looking at M&Ts, then the mid-sized rip carcass saws would be a good choice... A small cross-cut carcass saw is very handy... after the dovetail saw, the small cross-cut gets the most use round my shop... While I own a large cross-cut backsaw, it doesn't see much action (larger cross-cuts are done either at the table saw or kapex).... Folks new to hand saws sometimes like tapered backsaws.. They seem to be all the rage at the moment... ==> I think with all of the used tools I have acquired, it might be nice to get some new stuff As for brand... All the better saws are great.... I've used Veritas, LN, Bad Axe, Gramercy, etc... Don't get hung-up on brand... You would be happy with any of them... You should pick the one that feels the best in your hand... If you can, get to a woodcraft or show just to see how they 'feel'.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 I don't remember how much I paid for this backsaw. I'm sure it wasn't over 35 bucks, or someone else would be owning it. This one probably went cheap because the handle has some paint spatter on it. Someday I might refinish the handle. Most of the ones in my Backsaw toolbox, on their rack, were bought off ebay simply because I liked the handles and backs weren't screwed up. Some I've bought replacement blades for. This one just needed sharpening. I've counted the strokes for cutting these 2" long Heart Pine tenons, and they average 14. It'll follow the line without needing to file or plane a tenon for final width to fit. I just cut them to width while I'm sitting at the bench fitting tenons, rather than make another setup on one of the power tools. I use a Japanese pull saw to cut it off at the shoulder because I can flex the blade as I'm cutting with both hands and not touch the outer edges of the shoulders. The pullsaw is a 20 buck Irwin. Maybe one of the 250 dollar ones with the plastic handles would save me some time. http://www.historic-house-restoration.com/images/windows3_003.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 ==> Sharpening saws is a skill, like any other, and worth learning. ==> Saw sharpening is not something I have tried but it is on the to do list. Yea, I got the vice, the files, a $5 'eBay special' saw to practice on, a six-pack and the best of intentions... I 'sharpened' the 'eBay special' and made a pig's eye of it... Maybe it was the six-pack... I suspect after a few more attempts, it'll get better... But until then, I'll be sending them back to LN for their regular 10,000 mile tune-up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 OK TripleH, now you got me worried that I'll mess up my D8. How did it go wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 Everyone will screw up some to start with. Don't start on something that matters to you, but don't get something that needs major work, like reshaping teeth, either. It's like things like riding a bike, once you know how it's easy. It really only takes a few minutes if you don't have to stop and talk about it while doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 ==> How did it go wrong? Down to the beer No seriously, it's not that hard, but I'm convinced you need a practice saw or two... I suspect after two or three goes, I'll get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 At 63, I still don't need glasses, but these are my secret weapon for sharpening a saw with little teeth. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5X-Dental-Surgical-Binocular-Loupes-Optical-Glass-Loupe-LED-Head-Light-Lamp-SA-/110994684746?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d7cc7b4a I've never seen anyone, including myself, that didn't take off too much metal to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 ==> my secret weapon That's pretty sexy... I thought I was going 'high-tech' with one of these... http://www.amazon.com/Donegan-OptiVisor-Headband-Magnifier-Magnification/dp/B0068OSIIS/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1380502571&sr=1-2&keywords=Opti-Visor%2C+2.5x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 I have some similar to those, but I'm pretty sensitive to eyewear that's not pretty optically correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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