Llama Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 While researching my upcoming Shaker bench build, I went to YouTube and typed in "Shaker Workbench". Easy enough. A video of Norm pops up, so I clicked on it, and I'll be darned! He is actually planing a piece of wood on the Shaker bench of my dreams at the Hancock Shaker Village. His intent, was to use this as his inspiration. Then he goes back to his shop and builds a bench out of 2x4's and hardboard. I can't believe it. While I certainly didn't expect a full on Shaker workbench build, I didn't think I would see this. http://youtu.be/FH_qYs2E93c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Sweet! That the bench I posted in the pictures, inspirational! The shaker version that is, sorry Norm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted October 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Sweet! That the bench I posted in the pictures, inspirational! Your picture is. His video isn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Norm gets the poetic license exception. He's Norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeff70 Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Was that Norm in his first season of New Yankee Workshop? $700 for that workbench. We pay that for just 1-2 bench vises today! For those who watch 'This Old House' Norm has had some very shaky hands the last few years. I always enjoy watching him and hope Tommy and Norm can do the show for many years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Was that Norm in his first season of New Yankee Workshop? $700 for that workbench. We pay that for just 1-2 bench vises today! For those who watch 'This Old House' Norm has had some very shaky hands the last few years. I always enjoy watching him and hope Tommy and Norm can do the show for many years to come. I had a laugh on that one as well! Having just purchased my vises from Bench Crafted. They are nice though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozwald Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I recall that video fondly - that was the first time I'd ever seen/heard of Norm or his work. Great stuff. I'd long forgotten that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 What's so hard to believe? He clearly states that his goal is to make a workbench that is affordable and fits into a modern shop. Considering that he does very little with hand tools I think he came up with a good bench for him and many of his viewers. To be inspired by something does not mean you are going to duplicate it as closely as possible. Perhaps the inspiration he got was to make a bench out of commonly available materials that met the needs of the typical contemporary user, just like the original. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 What's so hard to believe? He clearly states that his goal is to make a workbench that is affordable and fits into a modern shop. Considering that he does very little with hand tools I think he came up with a good bench for him and many of his viewers. To be inspired by something does not mean you are going to duplicate it as closely as possible. Perhaps the inspiration he got was to make a bench out of commonly available materials that met the needs of the typical contemporary user, just like the original. I agree. My Shaker inspired bench will not be a blatant copy. However, it will show some characteristics of a Shaker bench. To be honest, I didn't expect a MDF topped bench. I don't think anyone would. I will never say anything bad about Norms use of powertools. But his premise was to build a bench meant for hand tool use. I don't see how he accomplished that goal. He made a very lightweight bench, with only one vise. He excluded the face vise only to save money, in an attempt at showing people how inexpensively one can make a bench. Either way, I've never seen this bench again. He continues to use his German made trestle bench throughout his series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I agree. My Shaker inspired bench will not be a blatant copy. However, it will show some characteristics of a Shaker bench. To be honest, I didn't expect a MDF topped bench. I don't think anyone would. I will never say anything bad about Norms use of powertools. But his premise was to build a bench meant for hand tool use. I don't see how he accomplished that goal. He made a very lightweight bench, with only one vise. He excluded the face vise only to save money, in an attempt at showing people how inexpensively one can make a bench. Either way, I've never seen this bench again. He continues to use his German made trestle bench throughout his series.I only have an MDF bench right now, but I agree that he could have done something better than that hardboard top. He was using construction lumber already, why not just a laminated 2x4 top? Not outrageously expensive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Steve, Good point well made. I feel I may have allowed myself to slip into snob mode! One further thing, we live in a post Schwarz world where old ways of doing things have become popular and making a old style bench is not that hard to do or expensive. Two examples come to mind, Paul Sellers British Joiners Bench and Stumpy Nuts Roubo. To be fair to Norm in the period he made this video perhaps people would of found a traditional build harder to digest over one short programme. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 What about Graham Haydon's British joinery bench? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Thanks for the plug C, of course the version you mention is vastly superior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 It's a good thing I didn't go with my original title for this thread! It certainly wasn't my intention to slip into snob mode. Although, I'm sure I did, and I am equally sure I will continue to. The original post was just kind of my reaction to what Norm did with the inspiration he was able to use. I have no beef with Norm. Heck, if it wasn't for Norm, most of us wouldn't be doing this thing we call woodworking. And for that I'm grateful. Having said all of that, his inspiration was not the Shaker workbench. It was the workbench he already has. I guess, that was the main point. And to address Steve's point, he visited the Shaker Village before stating his intent. He even stated that the Shakers always bought the best money could buy. Hence my shock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Norm uses brad nails in his furniture. An MDF workbench shouldn't be much of a surprise. I love Norm...everyone should love Norm because he's super-cool...but he doesn't have what I would consider discriminating taste when it comes to "fine" furniture. He's what I call "modern old-school"...he uses power tools almost exclusively but he tends to build mostly period pieces...and whatever makes it go together the fastest is cool with him. It's all good...some people like to woodwork that way. Some don't. I sure don't. The overall quality of the final product takes priority over everything else for me...some people just wanna get 'er done...mediocrity is fine. On the other hand, compare him to Scott Phillips and Norm starts looking like James Krenov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted October 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Scott Phillips is one of the most condescending people I have ever seen on TV. I can't sit through his shows anymore. I just start yelling at the tv and just walk away before I throw it out the window! I will never understand how this guy has his own show. Bring back Doug Marks or give Roy Underhill an hour! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Doug Marks is that David Marks snobbier brother or, Groucho's lesser known brother? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintersedge Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Having not watched a lot of original Norm I am fairly surprise at the video: - no dust collection - no safety goggles And I always thought Norm was a Delta fan through and through. And yes, tool snobbery judgement mode set in. I laughed when I say the Stanley carpentry chisel with a metal hammer head. Did any of these series elaborate on tool maintenance, sharpening, or was each show all building techniques? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Having not watched a lot of original Norm I am fairly surprise at the video: - no dust collection - no safety goggles If you would watch more Norm you would know that there is no more important safety rule than to wear THESE...safety glasses. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geadon Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 This was the 2nd episode of the New Yankee Workshop. For the first season or two he had fairly modest tools. I don't know the history, but presumably he didn't have sponsorship from a tool vendor at that point. I believe the Craftsman RAS and wobble dado blade were pretty common in that era. From the point of view of a TV producer -- I'm sure there are many (maybe 100?) benches made from plywood and construction lumber for every hardwood "bench of a lifetime" that's built. I'm not surprised they would choose the project with wider appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Scott Phillips is one of the most condescending people I have ever seen on TV. I can't sit through his shows anymore. I just start yelling at the tv and just walk away before I throw it out the window! I will never understand how this guy has his own show. Bring back Doug Marks or give Roy Underhill an hour! He does kind of talk to you like you're a kindergartener, doesn't he? From what I hear he's a really nice guy in person. What bugs me about him is that he's on TV (which automatically gives him credibility) and he teaches people how to do things the WRONG way. I've seen him mill rough lumber for a project without using a jointer...he'll just pass it through the planer to clean up the faces and calls it good...boards that were visibly bowed. NO! He uses his ROS like it's a sanding block...hundred miles an hour all over a surface, back and forth up and down at lightning speed. NO! He basically uses a whitewash brush to apply finish...like he's tarring a roof or something. Here, getcherself a big sloppy glob of this shellac and -SPLAT- yeah, spread that around nice and thick. NO! And to top it off he uses pocket screws on EVERYTHING. Hundreds of them. NOOO! There are SO many woodworkers out there with superior skills and ability to teach. Pick one of them...ANY of them, and it's going to be a much better learning experience for the viewer. I think he does a huge disservice to new woodworkers...setting them down the wrong path right from the start. "Doug" Marks reruns ad infinitum would be more favorable than one more American Woodshop episode (of course that was DIY, not PBS). I can name about a dozen guys on the WTO forum alone that I'd rather watch. I'd rather watch Tom Silva do a show about home construction - something I have little interest in - than watch Scott Phillips butcher something that I love. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 He does kind of talk to you like you're a kindergartener, doesn't he? From what I hear he's a really nice guy in person. What bugs me about him is that he's on TV (which automatically gives him credibility) and he teaches people how to do things the WRONG way. I've seen him mill rough lumber for a project without using a jointer...he'll just pass it through the planer to clean up the faces and calls it good...boards that were visibly bowed. NO! He uses his ROS like it's a sanding block...hundred miles an hour all over a surface, back and forth up and down at lightning speed. NO! He basically uses a whitewash brush to apply finish...like he's tarring a roof or something. Here, getcherself a big sloppy glob of this shellac and -SPLAT- yeah, spread that around nice and thick. NO! And to top it off he uses pocket screws on EVERYTHING. Hundreds of them. NOOO! There are SO many woodworkers out there with superior skills and ability to teach. Pick one of them...ANY of them, and it's going to be a much better learning experience for the viewer. I think he does a huge disservice to new woodworkers...setting them down the wrong path right from the start. "Doug" Marks reruns ad infinitum would be more favorable than one more American Woodshop episode (of course that was DIY, not PBS). I can name about a dozen guys on the WTO forum alone that I'd rather watch. I'd rather watch Tom Silva do a show about home construction - something I have little interest in - than watch Scott Phillips butcher something that I love. I just watched one video of his, and saw practically everything that you just said. I giggled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I will have to check this out, an initial search on images revealed a very robust mustache, so it's not all bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 This episode is nearly 25 years old. It is easy to look at the tools and techniques and dismiss them as not being "fine woodworking." It pains me to see all the brad nailing just as much as the next guy. I mean he takes the time to cut real joinery but then just nails it together. But part of the issue is we are looking at 1989 building methods with 2013 eyes. Case in point: I bought one of Fine Woodworking's books on cabinets. These books are usually just a compilation of old articles. In the book, they show a guy brad nailing a maple face frame onto a cabinet and just filling the hole with putty. I generally trust Fine Woodworking as a source for good technique, so I just have to assume this was a normal and acceptable thing to do back in the 1980s or whenever that article was first printed. But nowadays I don't think people do that very much. Like any hobby/craft/occupation/task, whatever you want to call it, the more people get into it and judge each others work, the higher the bar of what is considered "the good stuff." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 This episode is nearly 25 years old. It is easy to look at the tools and techniques and dismiss them as not being "fine woodworking." It pains me to see all the brad nailing just as much as the next guy. I mean he takes the time to cut real joinery but then just nails it together. But part of the issue is we are looking at 1989 building methods with 2013 eyes. Case in point: I bought one of Fine Woodworking's books on cabinets. These books are usually just a compilation of old articles. In the book, they show a guy brad nailing a maple face frame onto a cabinet and just filling the hole with putty. I generally trust Fine Woodworking as a source for good technique, so I just have to assume this was a normal and acceptable thing to do back in the 1980s or whenever that article was first printed. But nowadays I don't think people do that very much. Like any hobby/craft/occupation/task, whatever you want to call it, the more people get into it and judge each others work, the higher the bar of what is considered "the good stuff." The cabinets in my fiance's parent's bathroom have nails on the face frames. Bugs me every time I look at them. They went through all the trouble to make all solid maple face frames, raised panel doors, and drawers. But then attach the face frame with nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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