What defines quality in woodworking

[wintersedge]

Just starting a new thread instead of hijacking the post on business advice..

 

Krtwood said to build quality for the middle class...

 

My definition of middle class is 30-60k. Twice the poverty rate and double that if you are dual income. Unless you live in a high cost of living area most people can buy a home, a car, save a little, put something away for retirement, and still enjoy spending. 

 

Below is a table I would consider of quality. It is sold by Ethan Allen and cost 1799.99. I have visited their showroom and they make use of dovetails. I have not seen much tenon joinery but I can not rule out that they did not use floating tenons. I highly doubt any of the joints are done with hide glue or any adhesive that can be undone without damage to the piece. Grain direction is hit and miss depending on the piece you are looking at. And most of their furniture is not all real wood. They do make use of plywood though I have never seen any MDF: not that these components do not define quality furniture, I use plywood but stay away from MDF for health reasons. Overall I would consider Ethan Allen to be of average quality. 

 

If I were to build a similar table it would require 52-58bd/ft of material; add an additional 6 board feet to allow for waste. I would use oak, maple, cherry, or walnut to build the table: these are local to my area and not likely to cost more than $7 a bd/ft. At this point I have $500-600 dollars in. I would add another $30 dollars in for jigs, wear on blades, glue, stain, brush, rags, and any other shop incidentals. I would guess around $5 for electrical and gas. I do not have rent, but would add another $100 for costs associated with marketing, tool investment, gas to pickup lumber and deliver project. My total build time would be around 30 hours assuming I had built something similar and I am not building a full 1/1 model replica. And factor in 2-3 hours for consulting, wood choice, and time waiting for the client to approve wood selection, stain, and design. This works out to 650-750 in material and consumables. I would have to assign my labor costs to around $30/hr to be able to compete with Ethan Allen.

 

I would love to see a discussion on:

1. What criteria do you use to define a quality build?

2. How close are my estimates on time and materials?

3. What changes would you make to the above?

 

 

 

 

 

[wintersedge]

The link to the table is:

http://www.ethanallen.com/Cameron%20Dining%20Table/156714B,en_US,pd.html?start=19&cgid=shop-products-dining-room

[wtnhighlander]

I would never attempt to compete with a factory sourced retailer based on economics. They will always be able to provide a piece that looks like yours, works as well, and costs less. Instead, focus on what they can not provide - a unique, individual piece of furniture. What makes your work more valuable than the mass produced stuff is that no one else can ever have one exactly like it.

[Orbb]

First of all, I didn't know that Ethan Allen was still around.  The one here in Huntington is now a Radiologists' office, and the one in Parkersburg is a Woodcraft (the mother ship of the entire Woodcraft chain). 

 

Anyway, my thoughts on your questions:

 

1. What criteria do you use to define a quality build?

 

Materials and effort.  It takes time to select the right wood with the right grain and to put it together in a way that it will still be together in a generation or two.  Quality can be material based (using exotics), effort based (interesting and well constructed furniture from barn or pallet wood) or both.   A basic 7 foot bookshelf can be a quality build in made of solid wood with dadoes, as opposed to MDF and shelf pins.

 

2. How close are my estimates on time and materials?

 

I have never tried anything like the table depicted, but your estimates seem to be very efficient.  

 

3. What changes would you make to the above?

 

None because I lack the credibility to do so.  I await input from others.

[Tpt life]

What defines quality? Expectation. The ideal toilet seat (wait for it...) for an outhouse has been considered by many to be thick foam board. It warms quickly and is splinter free. Quality is measured by setting and customer expectation. Meet your own expectation and you will eventually be matched with customers who share expectations. Many artisans in this way rarely accept commissions to build but recieve commissions for built pieces in the early parts of their career. Are you asking as an artisan or as a businessman?

[Eric.]

"Quality for the middle class."  That's too ambiguous to define.  Like Shaffer pointed out..."quality" can be pretty subjective, and "middle class" falls under a fairly large umbrella.  There's a giant difference in spending power between a person who makes 30K per year and a person who makes 60K per year.  You won't find too many of the former category spending $1800 on an Ethan Allen table.  After sales tax on the item and income tax on the wages, that table constitutes 6, 7, maybe 8% of an entire year's salary.  Most people making 30K per year are struggling just to pay the mortgage and the car payment and the million other bills that come with life...and keep food on the table, too.  Sorry, but they're not buying "quality" furniture...if we're going to call Ethan Allen "quality."

 

60K per year for an individual, or better yet, 120K per year for a married couple, then it's more realistic.  I think the vast majority of Ethan Allen customers are going to fall into the "upper-middle class," category, however that is defined...in my mind it's the 150K to 350K per year families.  For these people, shopping at Ethan Allen is essentially the equivalent of a 30K earner shopping at IKEA.

 

So basically, I have to pretty much disagree with the premise that "middle class" people can (or more to the point, "do") buy "quality" furniture.  It's not on their priority list, and usually it's not even an option, since the kids need new shoes and the dentist wants 1500 bucks to pull this tooth, and there are more unexpected bills coming next month.  They're lucky if they can keep their bank accounts out of the red...unless they're VERY careful with money...in which case they're also not buying $1800 tables.

 

And not to be contrary, but I'll throw in another wrench, and say that Ethan Allen isn't really "quality" furniture, at least not in the world that WE (as in members of this forum) live in.  Yeah, compared to the paper and glue tables you find at Wal-Mart, it's great stuff.  Compared to what comes out of most of our shops, it sucks.  If I'm gonna build that Ethan Allen table for someone, I'll be charging more than Ethan Allen is charging, because it's going to be of much higher quality than theirs.

 

So no, in my opinion, the vast majority of the "middle class" either can't or won't buy "quality" furniture.

 

krtwood said in the other thread, "...if we're going to say that the only way to make money woodworking is to make things for rich people then we're basically saying that quality is a luxury that only the rich can afford."  And I would sadly have to say this is pretty much accurate.  Good luck making a living building for people struggling to make ends meet.  Middle class doesn't mean what it meant 50, 30, even 10 years ago.  Back then it meant a damn nice life.  Now it means "not homeless and hungry."  Luxury is for the rich.  And quality, custom-built furniture is luxury.  Unfortunate reality.

[..Kev]

Below is a table I would consider of quality. It is sold by Ethan Allen and cost 1799.99

 

Just to toss a monkey wrench into the conversation, at $1799.99, they made a healthy profit.

 

I agree with Eric and Chaffer about quality.  It's very subjective.

 

I also agree with Eric in that the vast majority of "middle class" do not buy "quality" furniture.  They may buy what they consider "quality" furniture but, if you break it down such as Eric did above, they probably bought high quality crap.

[wintersedge]

I should clarify:

1. My question is how do we make quality furniture/items for the middle class?

2. and What is considered quality in woodworking?

 

I do not have an answer for number 1. 

 

And for number 2 I consider those qualities to be design, wood selection, wood orientation when laid out and glued up, joint selection, and finish. 

[Guest]

--Just to toss a monkey wrench into the conversation, at $1799.99, they made a healthy profit

 

Depends on how you look at it.  Based on their last annual report, their cost of goods sold (materials, direct labor, allocated overhead) averages out to be about 46%.   So in this case, they made a gross profit of about 990.  But all of their fixed costs (stores, sales staff, management, designers, etc)  is another 46%, so they are left with about a 8% margin before paying for things like interest and taxes.  

 

Is Ethan Allen "quality,"   I own some of their stuff and I'd say yes.  It is artisan, small scale quality like the stuff people on this forum build?  No.  Is it affordable for the middle class?  Maybe, but for most middle class people it is just not a priority.   Two of my best friends are union electricians.  Union scale is about $42/hour in chicago right now.   To me that is the definition of middle clase.  Would they spend $2000 on a table?  No.  Maybe $2000 on a TV and home theater, or $2000 on an ipad and laptop, or $2000 on new rims for their truck.  Me, I'd rather have a nice table but we just have different priorities.   

 

--Middle class doesn't mean what it meant 50, 30, even 10 years ago.  Back then it meant a damn nice life. 

 

My grandfather was a butcher and had 4 kids.  my grandmother did not work till later in life.  My dad would say he grew up middle class.  4 kids in a 2 bedroom 1000 sq ft house.  1 car.  1 TV they weren't allowed to watch.  1 sofa they weren't allowed to sit on.   They didn't worry about retirement because they figured they'd die first.  They didn't worry about paying for college because most kids didn't go.  I am not sure I'd say it was a "damn nice life" but maybe I'd say it was a "simple life". 

[wintersedge]

@Eric, I agree with you. Ethan Allen is not quality that most/any woodworker would consider in comparison to their own work but I needed a baseline to establish a given level of quality. It is vastly above Sauder and Ikea, above Rooms to Go and Ashley, on par with Haverty's and Bassett, below Drexel Heritage and boutique shops, and significantly below a good Amish made store.

 

I also agree with you on spending. I personally think too many people are over leveraged in their buying habits and could afford better items but instead they opt for cheap items that they buy over and over. They also buy stuff because of an image or 'cool' factor. 

 

@Tiods, Ethan Allen price points net them tons of profit. They have several stores in the Atlanta area and just opened another near me. Based on size they can source material much cheaper than I ever could. They also use wages in other countries that I can never compete with. 

[dwacker]

I should clarify:

1. My question is how do we make quality furniture/items for the middle class?

2. and What is considered quality in woodworking?

 

I do not have an answer for number 1. 

 

And for number 2 I consider those qualities to be design, wood selection, wood orientation when laid out and glued up, joint selection, and finish.

One off's will kill you financially. It doesn't matter if its a cabinet or a table. Concentrate on a product line and get it price down.

[Guest]

I should clarify:

1. My question is how do we make quality furniture/items for the middle class?

2. and What is considered quality in woodworking?

 

I do not have an answer for number 1. 

 

And for number 2 I consider those qualities to be design, wood selection, wood orientation when laid out and glued up, joint selection, and finish. 

 

Here is my answer for #1.  You can't make money building something that people don't want.  Most middle class people do not want to spend a lot of money on furniture.  Its just not a priority.  Few people buy a dining table expecting it to last 30, 20  or even 10 years.  People want disposable crap.  Read my long post above.  Most of my best friends are squarely in the middle class category.  An ipad, flatscreen TV, rims for their truck, 4 wheelers, family vacation, these are all way way way higher on their list of priorities then high quality (by our definition) furniture.

 

But if you find a market for it, shaker designs are one way to go.  The construction is relatively simple, looks good, and is durable.  You won't spend a whole lot of time on design which will keep your cost down.  Use plain figured boards for your panels and save your figured stock for accents and drawer fronts.  Get your jigs set up so you can batch out 10 of the same table without a problem.  Full on custom furniture is a luxury.  There is a difference between luxury and quality. 

 

Fine woodworking ran an article a few months ago on how to make a living building furniture.  They interviewed a handful of guys doing it.  One said "the minute I go to hand tools I am losing money.  I need to get stuff off the machines as ready to go as possible."  Basically if you want to build high quality stuff at a competitive price point you need to cut out as much "luxury" as possible and focus on quality. 

[Tpt life]

Some of you who say there is no money in one-offs need to research Dirty Money. Look at how much some people are willing to pay for unique items in a NYC flea market. This is what I mean by expectation and its regional and ephemeral nature. Also, compare price points in housing markets. The vast difference in cost means that the willingness to purchase furnishings at a higher price point will rise proportionally often as a function of the cost of living. This is what leads me to agree with Eric wholeheartedly that middle class extends into the 300 K range in many markets.

[Cochese]

I think generalizations need to be kept at a minimum. At the upper end (combined) at that scale between the wife and I, we wouldn't spend $1800 on a dining room table. I made ours. However, it's nowhere near as nice as that one, and I would classify most things at the mid to upper mid stores (like Ethan Allen) as 'quality.' Is it 100% real hardwood with traditional joinery? Probably not. But most furniture isn't like that either, and I'd wager to say most of the members on this forum aren't making heirloom furniture as a prime product either hobby or professional. Different people from all different walks of life.

 

Quality is always subjective. Cost is subjective as well. Don't try to compete with retailers, because you don't have the production capabilities or ability to negotiate to to finance the way they do.

[pghmyn]

Quality in building to me is easy to define for myself, but might be hard for the customer or "non-woodworker" type. I'm not a pro, and I don't make a living off this craft. I only have enough time and extra income to make a few select projects a year. But, this doesn't mean I don't have an eye for quality, and have enough knowledge about the craft.

 

If I can spot out flaws in my work, my idea of final product quality will go down a bit. That doesn't mean I am unhappy with my work, but it tells me where to put more attention in the next project. I look for errors in my work just to find something to improve on. Might sound dumb, but I like to challenge myself to do better.

[Eric.]

Is it 100% real hardwood with traditional joinery? Probably not.

 

That's about exactly how I define "quality" in woodworking.   Anything less than that is...less than.  With a few exceptions...good plywood when it's called for, etc.  You put screws in something, it's no longer a quality piece.  It may look like it is, but it's not.  I'm talking furniture, not cabinets.

[dwacker]

That's about exactly how I define "quality" in woodworking.   Anything less than that is...less than.  With a few exceptions...good plywood when it's called for, etc.  You put screws in something, it's no longer a quality piece.  It may look like it is, but it's not.  I'm talking furniture, not cabinets.

 

Sam Maloof used screws. Stickley used/es screws.

[Cochese]

That's about exactly how I define "quality" in woodworking.   Anything less than that is...less than.  With a few exceptions...good plywood when it's called for, etc.  You put screws in something, it's no longer a quality piece.  It may look like it is, but it's not.  I'm talking furniture, not cabinets.

 

Just understand you are probably an exception in woodworking, and certainly the exception when it comes to the marketplace.

[Eric.]

Sam Maloof used screws. Stickley used/es screws.

 

Yeah that's true I guess.  But it wasn't like he was screwing together butt joints.  His screws were always additional reinforcement to already solid traditional joinery.

[dwacker]

Yeah, Maloof used screws for hinges and attaching table tops, etc.  He didn't screw together any joints, I can assure you.

 

 

Understood.

 

Actually your incorrect he screwed his rockers and tables together with long ass wood screw and dowels. That I can assure you.

[Llama]

This is an interesting topic that I struggle with from time to time.

About screws and dowels, I think they are fine when used properly.

Plywood, also fine when used properly.

But screwing together pieces of plywood does not quality make. (You have to say that in a Yoda voice to get the full effect.)

[Eric.]

Actually your incorrect he screwed his rockers and tables together with long ass wood screw and dowels. That I can assure you.

 

Butt joints?  I've never studied Maloof's work, but I can't believe that.  As beautiful as his pieces were, that diminishes his greatness in my mind...if it's true.

[wintersedge]

Just want to say thanks for taking the time to post. There are great ideas and opinions. It certainly gives me a lot to think about and discuss with the boss/wife/CFO. 

[Eric.]

Actually your incorrect he screwed his rockers and tables together with long ass wood screw and dowels. That I can assure you.

 

BTW, I deleted this right after I posted it but you must have quoted it immediately...for some reason I was thinking "Krenov" when you said "Maloof."  Krenov never used screws in joinery.  And he's who I try to live up to.  The title of the thread is "what defines quality," and in my personal opinion, screws don't.  You don't have to agree...there's no right or wrong answer.  But for me personally, a screwed-together piece of furniture belongs in the Ethan Allen workshop, not the studio craftsman's workshop.  For me personally.

[Llama]

The title of the thread is "what defines quality," and in my personal opinion, screws don't.  

 

I agree as far as joining legs to an apron, those stupid little corner brackets should be banned. 

 

Does your statement hold true for attaching table tops with screws? If so, what is your preferred method? I am mostly speaking about a Shaker style end table, not a dining table.