wtnhighlander Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Byrdie, how would you feel about it if those dents resulted in cans with no labels by the time you received them? The can is a content delivery system. A dented can is a damaged delivery system, which will not perform as advertised by the seller and expected by the customer. Supplying damaged ( although usable to some extent ) goods to a customer without warning, and telling them to just deal with it is bad business. I feel especially bad for the OP, as be did not request a refund or discount, but only called to let the seller know what happened. Yes, dented can is a minor nuisance. No, it isn't petty to expect a business, which depends on its customers for its very existence, to be at least courteous and polite to said customers. If customers have a problem, the business has a problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdie Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 So first question was how I see it: the product in the cans was usable despite all the what if scenarios that followed. I wouldn't have made the call in the first place. I understand that the shipping conditions may have been less than desirable and that the packaging wasn't perfect. If that were important I'd go to a local vendor and pick out perfect cans. If I'm buying on line it's because I'm looking for a price advantage or a time savings or because I can't get it locally. As long as the product I receive is usable I accept some of the risk that is inherent in that. Second comment/question was regarding the customer service and I believe I agreed with that in my original post. The customer service agent that was making up excuses/picking a fight wasn't doing their job. Since the OP wasn't looking for compensation or replacement the simpler tack would've been to accept the customer's comments and promise or agree to pass them on. Finally the question of the dents resulting in no labels. If I could easily identify what was in each can I'd break out my sharpie, write it on the outside and move on. If I couldn't then that moves the product into the category of unusable and complaints are warranted and justified. For me it's a matter of perspective and reasonable expectation. If I just spent as much on a car as my Dad spent on the mortgage for his first house then I think it's reasonable to expect that it be delivered without scratches. Granted scratches wouldn't render it unusable but it may affect the overall life of the product and it's proportionate to my investment. If I laid out the scratch for a couple cans of finish and the cans showed up with dents in them I'd chalk that up to experience. And if I missed anyone, I apologize. Let me know - I'll make an effort to explain once more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Many of those cans have a lining in them to protect the can and the product, damage as severe as those in the pic, that lining has been compromised, thus compromising the product. I would have returned them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 ==>damage as severe as those in the pic, that lining has been compromised, thus compromising the product. I would have returned them. I really wasn't kidding on my initial post -- I'd say 90% of my finish shipments from Woodcraft have at least one can as dented as those in the picture... But I get far larger/heaver shipments from Jamestown Distributors, Mohawk, Aircraft Supply, etc without any dents at all... It's got to be something happening at Woodcraft -- or it's just a huge coincidence... Either Woodcraft needs a Packaging Engineer to work with their logistics folks or (which I'm betting) they are accepting factory seconds... Factory seconds do happen and they've got to go somewhere... There's no way GF is simply writing-down that inventory. Further, the GM associated with re-work is very unfavorable... I'm sure GF is using using a continuous formula/process filling line which is expensive to setup, but cheap to run. The downside, reprocessing operations are costly due to the small lot size -- you can't spread the fixed/variable overhead effectively... So it's highly probably that in-process defects are culled and sold as seconds... They're selling the seconds to someone... Or donate them to Habitat for Humanity, et al. Or something... They just don't go away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 So the moral of the story is buy your Arm-R-Seal by the non-denty plastic gallon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 For what it's worth, Byrdie, I wouldn't have called either, but just because I'm lazy. I still would have been annoyed, and likely to direct future business elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Tarbell Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I'll admit that I will always choose the undented can over a dented can when buying in a physical store. Ordering online and having them come dented would have bothered me, but realistically i don't think it should. It's just calming to the mind to have the can, wrapper, box, etc be free of damage when you buy something, but often times the product within is still in fine shape. I recently saw a guy on youtube that would take a C-clamp and compress the sides of a partially used can after he was finished using them. It forced the air out of the can and then he'd cap it off while the level inside of the can was back up near the mouth. It seems like a brilliant plan to me so long as it's not clamped to the point of causing a crease/crack in the can.. Air is what's going to cause things to turn 'sour'. I'll likely be following suit since forcing air out at the expense of the can's appearance seems like a good idea to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XsMTGwTixw#t=541 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Byrdie, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Obviously expectations of quality control and customer service from a retail business is somewhat subjective and will vary slightly from person to person...even though I think the principle of the matter is fairly black and white. Maybe my perspective is a bit skewed because I live in the Amazon world, where the customer is on a pedestal high above everything else, including third-party sellers and even Amazon itself. Anyway, my life would certainly be easier if the world was filled with consumers like you...and I'm now strangely attracted to you after discovering your laid-back take on consumerism. I'll add one more twist: Obviously cans of finish aren't something typically given as gifts...but tell me...pretend that you were intending to give a good friend that can of Arm-R-Seal for his/her birthday and it arrived in that condition. Would you really find it acceptable to hand over that bit of merchandise that's all ugly and beat up? I'm guessing no. Woodcraft and every other retail outfit should assume that every item they sell and ship is intended to be a gift, and if the customer is buying what they presume to be a new and undamaged item, they should receive a new and undamaged item. I'm curious...what's your line of business? I'm quite certain I can find an analogy for you that will make you say, "Oh, of course we would never do that." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgaron Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Byrdie, Did you look at the Arm R Seal picture? The Zinnser is probably fine, but I'll be surprised if his Arm R Seal isn't a solid block in a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdie Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Byrdie, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm curious...what's your line of business? I'm quite certain I can find an analogy for you that will make you say, "Oh, of course we would never do that." I'm a purchasing agent for a paper merchant. I deal with claims for product quality all the time and see them from the sublime and ridiculous to the serious and well founded. Eric - it's not the point that I'm missing and I agree with you on some level. Many of the "what ifs," including your wedding gift example, are valid and reasonable examples of when product quality is a factor. (My response, BTW, is that I'd keep the dented cans for myself and find a local source where I'd get the quality I'm looking for.) My objection is the level at which so many are now prone to cry foul. We may disagree on some level and I'm fine with that. While I believe you and I are probably people that would get along in most circumstances I'm certainly willing to admit that I'm opinionated and I get the impression that you might just be a little bit as well. I also understand that my opinion may neither be the most popular one, the best, or correct. The only point I'm trying to raise to the original post is that there should be a reasonable amount of perspective applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Byrdie Posted June 24, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 Byrdie, Did you look at the Arm R Seal picture? The Zinnser is probably fine, but I'll be surprised if his Arm R Seal isn't a solid block in a month. Didn't look that bad to me, but I've been wrong at least a couple times ... just in this forum. Please don't ask my ex-wife or any former girlfriends for other examples. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 The only point I'm trying to raise to the original post is that there should be a reasonable amount of perspective applied. I agree with that completely! However, when the client calls to complain, there should be some amount of "I care" in the response. I took this as more of a customer care issue than a defective product issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deke Posted June 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Brydie, I'm trying, but I don't see your point. I am busy and my only intent in contacting them was to notify them they may have an issue with shipping and packing - as a favor from me to them. No request for a freebie, discount or anything. I said as much straight up to them and here. So I don't see what wasn't clear about my perspective and/or that it wasn't reasonable. If I were one of your customers and just called/emailed to tell you about a problem with ZERO expectation of any freebie, I think you would appreciate that. Mike, I hardly think "panties in a bunch" qualifies or is respectful in a forum where woodworkers are trying to give each other useful information. I shared information about a vendor that the majority of responders found useful and a few even have the same experience. What value are you providing? I'm going back to the shop and applying my final coat of Arm-R-Seal. If anyone wants to continue arguing over minutia, semantics, perceived tone or to twist someone else's words via the projection of their own frustrations in life, have fun. I'd rather be in the shop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 The disrespect really should stop. This kind of dent is almost certainly not physical damage that happened pre-packaging. This is almost certainly an atmospheric pressure issue that presented itself in transit. I would not trust the can. I do not use whole cans at a time and rely on a trustworthy re-seal. The can is an integrated system, the seal is no longer trustworthy. When I painted, we would very quickly transfer containers if we did not feel we needed to return the product. It is up to customer service and the OP to come to an arrangement. If no concession is made, this signifies that the seller does not see an integrity issue with the can system. This will come to bite them at some point. It is only a matter of time. OP made the call, log it-names, dates, times, etc. try the can. No problems=no worries. Problems= a new call. OP warned us. It is up to us to pay attention with this warning in hand. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 My local Woodcraft store is GREAT... In my travels, I've seen a variation from franchise to franchise, so specific store matters... That said, my local store often has slightly dented cans in stock lots more than local paint stores and big boxes. This thread makes me wonder how Woodcraft Central packs and ships finishing products, regardless of the recipient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Cindy Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 I just ordered one can of Arm R Seal, one can of GF dye, and one can of GF gel stain, all of which I need for an upcoming project. I will report back if any arrive damaged. Mike, Please report back either way, intact or damaged. I have always had excellent dealings with our local Woodcraft store which I think is a franchise, not a company owned store. As for market positioning, I find that Woodcraft is routinely 10% cheaper than Rockler on identical items. And they have pretty good sales going on frequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 These people have a sometimes crappy job and deal with people complaining all day. They are not good at guessing what you want. I understand your intentions of trying to give them helpful advice to improve their shipping process, but frankly such things are way above the pay grade and job description of the person you were chatting with. People do not like being put in situations they do not control. It is human nature. Well that is a company training problem not a human nature problem. I sell my stuff online and put it in a box and ship it out. I have to assume no news is good news. If things are coming out at the other end in way they shouldn't then that's something I need to know but I can't if no one tells me. Any good business wants that information and the only way they are going to get it is to have it come through customer service. It just so happens that I am customer service so it's not hard for me to pass the information to myself. For a large company this is difficult but it's something they have to take seriously. Here is a different unrelated anecdote. A few years back I ordered some hardware from Lee Valley. It was a little metal hanger that goes on the back of stuff to give you a keyhole to hang off a screw in the wall. The website quoted a particular size for the screws, I don't recall what it was but lets say #8, so I ordered the screws along with it. The order comes in and the screws don't fit. I had to use some #6 which fortunately I had. So I wrote to LV to tell them about that issue, and like the OP I wasn't asking for my money back on the screws or anything. I just wanted them to know so they could fix it. So I get an email back and the person says that they went and tried it and a #8 worked just fine. So I'm like WTF? Because it clearly doesn't. Well, if you had a screw that was threaded all the way (which LV doesn't sell) you could sort of thread the threads through the holes but it clearly isn't intended for a #8. Are they just lying about trying? WTF? I was scratching my head for some time until it finally occurred to me that he probably tried the screw in the hole that you hang the hanger from not the holes you attach the hanger to your doodad. So I wrote another email questioning whether that was what they meant and if so that's not really the information a person is looking for when buying the hardware. I didn't get a response. Now as it happens, at the time I was a poster on the usenet woodworking group and Robin Lee was an infrequent poster there too. It just so happened that he posted something right about this same time, so still being sort of confused over the whole thing I told him my story. I should point out that I did not use my real name or real email address in connection with usenet so there was no direct way to trace this back to me. The next day I had an email from Robin Lee apologizing and saying how they were going to work to make sure that that sort of information would get to the right people in the future. And that is how you do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post CessnaPilotBarry Posted June 29, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted June 29, 2014 The next day I had an email from Robin Lee apologizing and saying how they were going to work to make sure that that sort of information would get to the right people in the future. And that is how you do that. About ten years ago, I had a problem where FedEx Ground kept smashing Lee Valley packages. Two in a row arrived with some damage, and Lee Valley promptly reshipped new goods. Next, a third shipment arrived completely smashed, and included things that weren't mine, including a half-used can of industrial spray lube that must have been used at the sorting facility that smashed the box. Lee Valley again shipped new stuff without any hassle to me... Customer service never questioned my claims, and handled all of it with apologies and smiles in their voices. A few days later, out of the blue, I answer my phone to find Rob Lee, the CEO, personally calling me VOICE to ask a few questions about the recent shipping problems. He asked if he could send me shipping materials and a call tag, so I could ship all the broken stuff, and especially the destroyed packing materials to him at LV HQ. He told me he was planning to take all of this crap to his FedEx rep and dump it on his desk! When was the last time you had a service problem and the CEO of a decent sized company called you? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted August 24, 2014 Report Share Posted August 24, 2014 One week after perfect arrival, this can looks like this. It has been stored in my basement. Best guess, a truck got hot enough that gas blew by the seal. My can "oil canned" as it cooled. This is more the shipper or me than the supplier. Food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Cindy Posted August 24, 2014 Report Share Posted August 24, 2014 Well now that is food for thought. Very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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