bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 While working on my current project I've been trying to figure out what tool upgrade would improve my efficiency in the shop. As I've gone through the stages of the build I have debated where I need to upgrade the most. I feel like my time in the shop gets wasted on some timely parts of a build and then I rush through joinery and shaping, leading to mistakes. I think the time suck and the least pleasurable points of a project for me are milling and sanding. I don't really enjoy finishing, but I just use ARS 95% of the time anyway so it's not difficult. My wife has essentially given me the green light for a big tool purchase when she gave me the go ahead for a new jointer. As the project has progressed though, and as I stare at a pile of parts for two of those kitchen helper things, I'm not too sure the jointer is where I should go. I think the time suck and the least pleasurable points of a project for me are milling and sanding. I don't really enjoy finishing, but I just use ARS 95% of the time anyway so it's not difficult. I currently have a 6" Ridgid jointer. It works, and works better than you'd expect. Lately the knives have shown signs of being dull, but ultimately I don't have problems most of the time making boards flat and square. If I buy a new jointer it too will be 6", I don't have 220 and don't really have plans to add it. So would a longer bed and Powermatic quality really help me that much? I'm not too sure now. So my head goes to a drum sander. My hesitation comes to size...I know this group's love for the Supermax, but I'm not sure I can fit it in my shop without cramping my space too much. Are there any smaller drum sanders that are worthwhile? The Jet 10-20? Either of the smaller Grizzly sanders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eric. Posted July 20, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 I wouldn't buy any of the smaller units. They come with a host of design problems that create a frustrating user experience. I think it's basically a no-brainer at this point to save for a Supermax 19-38 for any hobbyist in the drum sander market. That said, a drum sander doesn't eliminate sanding. It's just an in-between step from milling to final surface-prep. I keep 120 on mine and honestly it leaves a rougher surface than my planer does...but it eliminates any snipe and tearout, and makes leveling panels a snap. But you still have all the surface-prep to do after the drum sander, so it doesn't really save you any sanding. My workflow was completely revolutionized when I started smoothing my flat boards and panels with a hand plane. That eliminates about 90% of the sanding necessary. If you can get good with your smoother, all you need to do is quickly hit it with some 220 afterward. You save a bit of time...but the more valuable part to me is you're saving yourself the misery of sanding. Anyway, I do think in your position a drum sander makes more sense than buying a new jointer - as long as your jointer is making flat and square boards. That upgrade doesn't seem to make much sense for you at the moment. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 Yeah, I know the DS won't eliminate the random orbit, but I would hope it would make quick work of leveling and removing tear out, etc., to speed the process along. I'll think about rearranging the shop to accomodate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfitz Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, bleedinblue said: I feel like my time in the shop gets wasted on some timely parts of a build What specifically is the time wasted? Time performing a step? Or are there steps you think you can eliminate (or minimize - like sanding)? I'm all for a DS...awesome tool I hope to have some day - but there could be other things needed to improve your efficiency. If you find you're walking back and forth a lot or futzing with where to put things - maybe a slightly different layout would be helpful. If you're going to move things around to make space for a DS, see if the layout can make your time spent at any project phase more efficient. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 21 minutes ago, bleedinblue said: I'll think about rearranging the shop to accomodate. One thing to remember is there is a lot of potential storage space under the footprint of the SuperMax. So look around the shop, have you got things in a storage cabinet that might go in the stand you build for the sander? And maybe removing that storage cabinet will give you room for the DS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21meyer Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 Supermax is releasing a 16-32 model but I have not checked to see the footprint. I have the 19-38 and am happy with it but it does take up a fair amount of floor space especially if you don't build a cabinet stand. http://www.supermaxtools.com/products/wood/16-32-drum-sander-71632/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 Hmm. I COULD move my finishing supplies to a cabinet under the sander and eliminate one cabinet, allowing me to move my dust collector back a couple feet. 5 minutes ago, 21meyer said: Supermax is releasing a 16-32 model but I have not checked to see the footprint. I have the 19-38 and am happy with it but it does take up a fair amount of floor space especially if you don't build a cabinet stand. http://www.supermaxtools.com/products/wood/16-32-drum-sander-71632/ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Holy crap. I've been saying they needed a smaller model but had no idea one was in the works. I'm practically sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21meyer Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 According to the email I received, they are going to retail at $1199. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, 21meyer said: According to the email I received, they are going to retail at $1199. I just found that an edited my post. Awesome info. I seriously may just pre-order it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 17 minutes ago, Jfitz said: What specifically is the time wasted? Time performing a step? Or are there steps you think you can eliminate (or minimize - like sanding)? Ehhhhhh, it's just the time the milling and sanding takes seems to be longer than it should. I just got frustrated during this project with the time it is taking and the errors I have made, so it has me re-examining my work flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee-dub Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 The 16-32 looks like a great tool for the small shop. Folding tables, smaller footprint, etc. I have wished for more than the 19-38's 4" height restriction and the 16-32's 3" would probably push me to the larger machine (I already have it). The value of certain capacities and features will vary with the woodworker and what he uses the tool for. There are other ways to do things for those rare moments when I exceed the capacity of some machine. If the 19-38 had come with folding tables I would be a little happier, not much Of course, then I would have lost that extra storage ;-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eric. Posted July 20, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 I personally enjoy milling so I don't mind the time it takes. Sanding, different story. The smoothing plane has been key in alleviating a lot of that misery. There's still plenty of sanding to do, but it minimizes the drudgery. Surface-prep is just part of the game. Unfortunately it's also a critical part and makes or breaks a project. I've gotten used to the fact that there's hell at the end of every project. It's like going back to work after a vacation. Hold your nose, take the plunge. The only way through it is through it. Music and a couple beers during a relaxed evening makes it not as terrible. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 I'm still working toward incorporating my smoother into my work flow. It's not as automatic as I had hoped, I need to dedicate time to practice. I have the plane, I just have to start incorporating. Same goes for card scrapers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfitz Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, Eric. said: Hold your nose, take the plunge. The only way through it is through it. Music and a couple beers during a relaxed evening makes it not as terrible. Words of wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 Don't get me wrong guys, I obviously know sanding is part of the game and can't be eliminated. For this project as an example though, I started with 80 grit on the ROS just to clean up remaining glue squeeze out and to level out slightly off set joints. It took me about ten minutes per, and there were four of them..so right there was almost an hour just to get them sanded up to 80. I could have passed these through a DS a few times to quuckly get them up to 120 or so, the rest of the ROS work would be a breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfitz Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 Instead of an expensive machine (don't get me wrong - I still think you should get a drum sander...), you could look at different ways of accomplishing the same task. Hand lanes pop to mind - I bet with a No 80 cabinet scraper and/or a decent jack plane, you could have eliminated squeeze out and leveled the joints in a fraction of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 2 hours ago, 21meyer said: According to the email I received, they are going to retail at $1199. I was really hoping for $999 ... $200 under the original big boy isnt that much 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 28 minutes ago, Jfitz said: Instead of an expensive machine (don't get me wrong - I still think you should get a drum sander...), you could look at different ways of accomplishing the same task. Hand lanes pop to mind - I bet with a No 80 cabinet scraper and/or a decent jack plane, you could have eliminated squeeze out and leveled the joints in a fraction of the time. Yeah, I know. I have some Liam Nielsen gear and like I said above, I'm working at incorporating them more. I'm struggling at that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 35 minutes ago, Jfitz said: Instead of an expensive machine (don't get me wrong - I still think you should get a drum sander...), you could look at different ways of accomplishing the same task. Hand lanes pop to mind - I bet with a No 80 cabinet scraper and/or a decent jack plane, you could have eliminated squeeze out and leveled the joints in a fraction of the time. Yeah I agree...if I didn't have a drum sander I would have tackled the initial stages with a smoother, block plane, card scraper. Also make sure you remember...120 grit on the drum sander is not 120 grit on a ROS. It's much more aggressive and leaves deep scratches. When you go from 120 DS to the ROS, you'll still have to start at 80 grit to get the 120 DS scratches out. You can try a higher grit on the DS but I've always found it way too prone to loading and burning at anything higher than 120...and extremely slow. So I've settled in at 120 and that's where I keep it. Changing belts to do sequentially higher grits on the DS is almost more time consuming than just dealing with it with the ROS...unless you have a ton of parts or giant panels. For me, the drum sander has very little to do with surface-prep, and everything to do with post-planer and panel glue-up clean-up...if that makes sense. It's just preparation for surface preparation. A truly intermediate step. I'm not poo-pooing the drum sander at all...it's a very useful workhorse...I'm just trying to classify its usefulness accurately. And again, that's why I keep pushing the smoother...because it eliminates three entire grits of sanding, and it's much more enjoyable making shavings for an hour or two than it is standing and sanding for several hours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jfitz Posted July 20, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, bleedinblue said: I have some Liam Nielsen gear I've heard he has good stuff. And skills - mad skills. He doesn't have a lot of money, but what he does have is a very particular set of skills. Skills he acquired over a very long career. Skills that make him a nightmare for sanding like that.... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legenddc Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 Helical head for your jointer? Took me forever to sand the kitchen helper. I can't remember how long, but I know my wife couldn't believe I was still sanding each evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, legenddc said: Helical head for your jointer? Took me forever to sand the kitchen helper. I can't remember how long, but I know my wife couldn't believe I was still sanding each evening. Try two at once There is no way I'll put a helical head on this Ridgid, I guess unless I find one deeply discounted. A $400 head on a jointer with probably less than $400 doesn't seem like a good investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 26 minutes ago, Eric. said: Also make sure you remember...120 grit on the drum sander is not 120 grit on a ROS. It's much more aggressive and leaves deep scratches. When you go from 120 DS to the ROS, you'll still have to start at 80 grit to get the 120 DS scratches out. You can try a higher grit on the DS but I've always found it way too prone to loading and burning at anything higher than 120...and extremely slow. So I've settled in at 120 and that's where I keep it. Changing belts to do sequentially higher grits on the DS is almost more time consuming than just dealing with it with the ROS...unless you have a ton of parts or giant panels. For me, the drum sander has very little to do with surface-prep, and everything to do with post-planer and panel glue-up clean-up...if that makes sense. It's just preparation for surface preparation. A truly intermediate step. I'm not poo-pooing the drum sander at all...it's a very useful workhorse...I'm just trying to classify its usefulness accurately. This is all good and accurate information. I haven't acquired the smoother skill set yet but as far as everything else this system works real well for me. I like most don't care to sand but being able to run it through the drum sander at 120 a few times and then start at 80, 120, 150 and 180 with the ROS makes it a pretty tolerable task because the drum sander has done the heavy lifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legenddc Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 minute ago, bleedinblue said: Try two at once There is no way I'll put a helical head on this Ridgid, I guess unless I find one deeply discounted. I'm just trying to spend your money! I can't imagine doing 2 at once. Mine was ambrosia maple and my first time using rough wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Chet said: I haven't acquired the smoother skill set yet At least I'm not alone! Even with a quality plane and a super sharp blade direct from Tom, anything wider than the body of the plane gets tracks and gouges. 1 minute ago, legenddc said: I can't imagine doing 2 at once. Mine was ambrosia maple and my first time using rough wood. It's not a hard project at all, but I confused myself with Domino layout. I think each one has a half dozen plugged mortises...that really frustrated me. Now it's down to round overs and lots of sanding. Yes, I'll try to incorporate the smoother, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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