Some Roubo Build Questions

[Eric.]

40 minutes ago, Jean [Fr] said:

Obviously what you highlighted was said about his production, not about workbenches.

No, that text was specifically about his bench.

I've never claimed and will never claim that you NEED any particular style of bench or that it NEEDS to be built of any particular species or that fantastic work can't be accomplished on the most rudimentary bench or no bench at all.  I mean traditional Japanese workbenches are just a chunk of lumber.  I'm not denying reality...I'm only making one simple point that seems to be completely over people's heads, which is...

...if you're gonna take the time to build a bench, you might as well build the best one you can, because it won't take that much longer or cost that much more money to do it BETTER.  That. Is. All.

[legenddc]

1 hour ago, Eric. said:

...if you're gonna take the time to build a bench, you might as well build the best one you can, because it won't take that much longer or cost that much more money to do it BETTER.  That. Is. All.

I think this is the point people miss. Whenever the time comes for me to spend 200+ hours on a roubo it will be the best materials for the job. If I'm just making a 'workbench' that will be used as a catch-all/assembly table type bench then maybe screwing some plywood on top of 2x4s might be fine.

[Jean [Fr]]

Wow, if you invest 200+ hours on a Roubo, how much time would you spend on a cabinet ?

@Eric. My apologizes for the misunderstanding of the text. I can read Roubo's in old French, but I take some shortcuts with English, by laziness I'm afraid. I took time to read from start to end. Sorry. Apparently the writer needed to say something special about an ordinary bench, or it would not worth the paper. But he noticed the tapered legs, which I did not notice, I was focused on the overall simplicity and the lightness of the top and the legs.

To my eyes, Maloof's workbench have nothing extra, species or design, unless you consider the legs any better. It reminds me mine : no fancy wood contrasts, no expensive vice... Better is a subjective concept, depending of who's talking. To me a functional workbench reached its goal, any extra is a pointless luxury. How can it be better ? I have spent under 30 hours building my workbench. I'm far to be ashame of it, I'm focused on what I make on it, and I do that during thousands of hours each year, without anything to blame about my workbench, so...

[legenddc]

I just made up that number. I can't remember how many hours people have said it's taken them on here. You get the point though.

[bgreenb]

3 minutes ago, legenddc said:

I just made up that number. I can't remember how many hours people have said it's taken them on here. You get the point though.

I don't think it's much of an exaggeration.  I bet I put 150 hours into my roubo.  I'd be absolutely shocked if I put fewer than 100 hours in.  

[pkinneb]

1 hour ago, bgreenb said:

I don't think it's much of an exaggeration.  I bet I put 150 hours into my roubo.  I'd be absolutely shocked if I put fewer than 100 hours in.  

Agreed! I put 140 hrs into mine which until my current project (sculpted bar stools, 210 hrs and counting  ) was the most I had into any furniture project.

[estesbubba]

I spent 100 hours just reading Tom and Brian's build threads which probably saved me 110 hours of mistakes. 

[bgreenb]

7 minutes ago, Mike. said:

150 of Brian time = 300 hours of my time.  So yeah, I will never build one.  I just don't see the payoff.  

LOL.  Maybe 150 hours of Brian *construction* time is 300 hours of your time.  But I bet we are closer to the same pace when it comes to fine woodworking.  I guess we'll see come demilune time

 

[bgreenb]

17 minutes ago, Mike. said:

.  I just don't see the payoff.  

I'm sure you realize this, but the payoff for me was just as much the journey as it was the destination. I absolutely love having my Roubo and find it incredibly useful. But it was also probably the most fun I've had building something in my shop, maybe ever. 

Except for making the shelf at the end. That sucked. Only reason I even did it was to avoid having Eric force the walk of atonement on me. 

 

[Eric.]

3 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

Better is a subjective concept, depending of who's talking. To me a functional workbench reached its goal, any extra is a pointless luxury. How can it be better ?

The analogy has been used a million times to the point of cliche, but I'll use it again for lack of imagination...

Any old crappy car will get you from A to B.  And a Ferrari will only do the same thing.  But the ride is gonna be a lot more fun.

[Tpt life]

4 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

Wow, if you invest 200+ hours on a Roubo, how much time would you spend on a cabinet ?

To my eyes, Maloof's workbench have nothing extra, species or design, unless you consider the legs any better. It reminds me mine : no fancy wood contrasts, no expensive vice... Better is a subjective concept, depending of who's talking. To me a functional workbench reached its goal, any extra is a pointless luxury. How can it be better ? I have spent under 30 hours building my workbench. I'm far to be ashame of it, I'm focused on what I make on it, and I do that during thousands of hours each year, without anything to blame about my workbench, so...

1) Careful with tone. It is easy to come off as elitist by criticizing hobbiests for the time taken in pursuit of their craft. 

2) All design consideration for Maloof's bench needs be proportional to the pieces he crafted, and the choice of a patternmakers vise. He milled with machines, and shaped with more machines. I think there is a great deal of apples to oranges comparison in your discussion points here. I would certainly consider the vise to be a special consideration. Most do not own one. 

[Eric.]

Jean, have you ever read any James Krenov?  He talks quite a bit about the difference between "amateur" and "professional" woodworkers.  I'm an amateur in the Krenovian sense of the word.  Note that it has nothing to do with skill level, but how a craftsman prioritizes the goals in his work.  Doing the best you can in every aspect of the craft, despite the time it takes or monetary influences is what being an amateur is about.  You may think it's silly to spend 200 hours building a bench out of premium materials...but I think exactly the opposite is true - that it's silly not to - if and when you decide to build a bench.  It's a philosophy, and I subscribe to it fully.

I recommend reading A Cabinetmaker's Notebook if you're interested in a different perspective and understanding where I'm coming from.  He explains it much better than I ever could.

[Jean [Fr]]

1 hour ago, C Shaffer said:

1) Careful with tone. It is easy to come off as elitist by criticizing hobbiests for the time taken in pursuit of their craft.

English is not my native language, sorry if I sound hard. This is not intentional. I have a good nature and I'm mostly in a good mood. I did not wanted to be critical. 200 hours seems to me a huge amount of time for a Roubo alike workbench, because this is not a difficult plan. I only spend that amount of time on complex or large pieces, like armoires,  cabinets, with a lot of doors and drawers to fit. Curved panels, this kind of stuff. But I estimate this time with power tools for the rough jobs, of course if you do everything by hand, it will probably take more time. I never wanted to be disrespectful.

34 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Jean, have you ever read any James Krenov?  He talks quite a bit about the difference between "amateur" and "professional" woodworkers.  I'm an amateur in the Krenovian sense of the word.  Note that it has nothing to do with skill level, but how a craftsman prioritizes the goals in his work.  Doing the best you can in every aspect of the craft, despite the time it takes or monetary influences is what being an amateur is about.  You may think it's silly to spend 200 hours building a bench out of premium materials...but I think exactly the opposite is true - that it's silly not to - if and when you decide to build a bench.  It's a philosophy, and I subscribe to it fully.

I recommend reading A Cabinetmaker's Notebook if you're interested in a different perspective and understanding where I'm coming from.  He explains it much better than I ever could.

Maybe I have a professional approach without knowing it. I think you're beyond amateur @Eric. I would say you are an aesthete. I don't know a lot about J. Krenov, but I appreciate his work. As I said above, I don't think it's silly to spend 200h on a bench, just the amount of work to do don't match the time. It's a work I did some times, so I evaluate according to my experience...

I would love reading A Cabinetmaker's Notebook, but I'm afraid US woodworking literature is not available in France, and shipping costs from the states are pretty expensive. But don't worry, we have a lot of woodworking literature by very interesting people in the French language, despite it is mostly oldies oriented.

17 minutes ago, Mike. said:

the finewoodworking podcast had an interesting discussion of this in a recent episode.   They were talking about finish prep and mentioned that antique furniture often has rough surfaces on the undersides or insides of case pieces.  The board might have been flattened (enough) with a scrub or jack plane but was never smoothed.  Modern day handtool people will sometimes emulate that because they think it is "better" or more authentic.   Leaving planer chatter marks on the bottom of a table top would be the same thing, really, but most of us would be too proud to do that.  Krenov's philosophy was that all surfaces, unseen and seen, should be treated equally out of respect for the wood, the customer, and the piece itself.  Interesting point of view.  

My view is sloppiness begets sloppiness.   If you are willing to be sloppy on the bottom of a desk top, before you know you are sloppy with your finishes, sloppy with your hinge mortises, sloppy with your grain match.... and for the all the skill you have acquired over the years, you are no better than a newb.  Actually, you are worse.  

(for the record this has nothing to do with workbench materials... I think this thread has beat that horse to death.... of course you build beautiful furniture on a pine bench)

 

@Mike. I understand the extreme respect J.Krenov have for woodworking. He's a cabinet maker and he works for passion and for his reputation. Of course you may understand I'm not the kind of guy who will take the same care for unseen parts. My to do list is already too long for a life, I can't take time for that.

By the way, what is disturbing, is to presuppose that if you don't take that care for hidden parts, you don't take care about the whole piece. This is a shortcut which does not reflects reality. My workbench is pretty well made, with proper joinery, and so are my pieces. I would not make a piece that is not properly functional, adjusted of finished. Usually I'm considered for my work, even by respected professionals.

[SeventyFix]

My $0.02:

Wood Selection - I go with the best wood that I can afford that makes sense for the project.  My Roubo was executed in hard maple.  Other materials will work.  I spent a lot of time in Canada and there's something that I just like about maple.  The price was reasonable ($3.50/board foot at the time).  I spent a year building my bench, off and on.  With that much time in the build, the price of the materials is not a great concern.  I'm just using the bench for my woodworking projects now - it really belongs to my children.  This thing is a beast and I expect it to last beyond me.

Benchcrafted Hardware - I was unaware of this until recently: The Benchcrafted hardware can be purchased from Highland Woodworking in Atlanta, GA.  To each his own but I didn't enjoy working with the people at Benchcrafted.  I've had great experiences with Highland Woodworking.  I pay the shipping to Dallas, TX but don't pay sales tax.  This might make it cheaper for you as well.