Marco Divetta Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 Hi guys and gals, I'm in serious need of some knowledge ...having a major issue with a skateboard glue up It's my first skateboard but not my first bent wood lamination, I'm on my second attempt and the glue keeps failing !!..it's as if it's not drying but I gave it a sold 48 hours the second time round ... It's just turning rubbery ... I've done way more intricate pieces than a skateboard before but nothing as wide and I'm hoping it's just drying time. I'm using gorilla glue wood glue ( titebond not easily available in Ireland ), I'm applying a good amount with a roller onto both surfaces and on my second attempt made sure that the whole thing was clamped within 7 minutes ... I'm using wallnut in case that has something to do with it ( I know not the norm but I have loooooads of it ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 What's the temperature in your shop? Wood glue isn't that great for bent laminations. Can you get Unibond 800? Probably not...it has formaldehyde in it. But that's what you should use if you can get it. Something that dries hard. Call the guys at Axminster and see what they recommend for you European types. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted September 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 @Lester Burnham I don't have an exact temp but nowhere near freezing ... In around 12 or 13 celsius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted September 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 @Eric. Do you think cascamite might do the trick ?... It's the only thing locally available Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeset202 Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 What about a long cure epoxy, West System with 206 hardener? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Marco Divetta said: @Eric. Do you think cascamite might do the trick ?... It's the only thing locally available Probably. They use it in boat building so it's probably tough as hell, and it's gap-filling. A quick google turned up a couple comments about using it for bent lams. I don't know anything about it though so I can't say for sure. You want an extremely hard glue for bent lams, which is why plastic resin glues like Unibond are recommended. The harder the glue, the less springback you'll get. Epoxy would probably work but it's not ideal. All that aside, I think your wood glue issues are probably temperature or age related. Even if wood glue isn't ideal for bent lams it should still cure properly. 12*C isn't THAT cold but it might be cold enough to cause issues. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 All PVA type glues ( white & yellow glues) can creep slowly so it is not recommended for any bent laminations. Age, temperature , mold, algae, fungus and contaminates can lead to glue failure. I've learned to glue up a test block from scraps if using glue that might be questionable. But you need to find a different glue with a ridgid character. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted September 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, Cheeset202 said: What about a long cure epoxy, West System with 206 hardener? Can't get the stuff off the shelf here so a two part epoxy is going to be just in case none of the glues I can get locally do the job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted September 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 6 minutes ago, Eric. said: Probably. They use it in boat building so it's probably tough as hell, and it's gap-filling. A quick google turned up a couple comments about using it for bent lams. I don't know anything about it though so I can't say for sure. You want an extremely hard glue for bent lams, which is why plastic resin glues like Unibond are recommended. The harder the glue, the less springback you'll get. Epoxy would probably work but it's not ideal. All that aside, I think your wood glue issues are probably temperature or age related. Even if wood glue isn't ideal for bent lams it should still cure properly. 12*C isn't THAT cold but it might be cold enough to cause issues. Do you think I'll have to leave it clamped up for a few days because it's a wide piece ( 8 inches ) ... For the water to evaporate ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted September 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, wdwerker said: All PVA type glues ( white & yellow glues) can creep slowly so it is not recommended for any bent laminations. Age, temperature , mold, algae, fungus and contaminates can lead to glue failure. I've learned to glue up a test block from scraps if using glue that might be questionable. But you need to find a different glue with a ridgid character. Is titebond 3 a type of PVA glue ?... That seems to be what everyone's using to make skateboards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, Marco Divetta said: Do you think I'll have to leave it clamped up for a few days because it's a wide piece ( 8 inches ) ... For the water to evaporate ? Specs state 6 hours cure time, temperature-dependent. I'd leave it in the form for 24 hours just to be safe. I also saw that it mentioned laminating as one of its uses, so it would probably work for you. I think it's primarily used as an industrial-grade waterproof outdoor adhesive. Yes TB3 is PVA. It's "waterproof" but doesn't dry hard enough to be ideal for bent lam. People use it for skateboards because they don't know any better, not because it's the best option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 I just read up on casamite. It's a modified version of urea formaldehyde glue which should be perfect for your project. Please do a small practice run before you invest time and materials in the full blown piece. If Titebond 3 is what other skateboard builders are using that's also worth a shot if you can get it. 24-36 hours in clamps can't hurt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted September 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, wdwerker said: I just read up on casamite. It's a modified version of urea formaldehyde glue which should be perfect for your project. Please do a small practice run before you invest time and materials in the full blown piece. If Titebond 3 is what other skateboard builders are using that's also worth a shot if you can get it. 24-36 hours in clamps can't hurt. I'm going to try the cascamite and just forget about it in the clamps for a few days .... Didn't realise I was this impatient Thanks guys ... I appreciate the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeset202 Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 Just spit balling here but bent lams I have done are for furniture and are not subject to constant bending like a skateboard. I would think the glue you would need would have to be strong enough for the laminations but not too brittle to break down with the constant flexing of the skateboard. That may be why others use the titebond III in this particular application. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Z. Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 I don't know a whole lot about skateboards, but I know something about boat building. If epoxy is not ideal for bent laminations, then the boat I have that's about 30 years old is going to fall apart any day now. Epoxy is ideal for your use. At 13 degrees, you'll want to use the fast hardener. You'll need to keep it in the clamps about 12 hours or so. It's important to understand that epoxy cures via catalyst. The liquid turns to a solid via chemical reaction, not by drying. For what you are doing, The absolute easiest thing would be to pick up a tube with the resin and hardener already inside. It comes with a mixing nozzle, and it has some thickener already inside. It fits in a standard caulking gun. When you are done with it, you can leave the nozzle on until next time, then remove it and put on a new one... The epoxy will not cure in the tube. At about the six hour point (maybe less, it's temperature dependent) check the squeeze out. If it's still a little soft, maybe tacky, you can scrape the squeeze out off easily. For more info, go to the Gougeon Brothers web site. They have a free PDF download of their book on using it for boat building. It also speaks to using their systems for making wind turbine blades. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Don Z. said: I don't know a whole lot about skateboards, but I know something about boat building. If epoxy is not ideal for bent laminations, then the boat I have that's about 30 years old is going to fall apart any day now. This is a short but fairly dense article that explains why WS epoxy may be ideal for boat building (and possibly skateboards) but possibly not furniture (it's my understanding that you want to use a glue that is very hard in furniture laminations to reduce springback). It discusses flexibility, elongation, stress, creep, ultimate properties, yield properties and toughness. http://epoxy-it.com/ss/understanding-flexible-properties-2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkinneb Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Eric. said: This is a short but fairly dense article that explains why WS epoxy may be ideal for boat building (and possibly skateboards) but possibly not furniture (it's my understanding that you want to use a glue that is very hard in furniture laminations to reduce springback). It discusses flexibility, elongation, stress, creep, ultimate properties, yield properties and toughness. http://epoxy-it.com/ss/understanding-flexible-properties-2 Thanks for sharing! Very informative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 1, 2017 Report Share Posted October 1, 2017 I saw a small pro skateboard mfg video once. They used rectangular frames (steel) with hydraulic jacks to apply pressure. A whole stack of boards were glued up at once. I can't remember anything about what glue they used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marco Divetta Posted October 11, 2017 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 Little update .. Tried again with cascamite and failed sadly but read a few articles and came across one by a guy having a similar issue. His solution was to make two sets of laminations and bring the two together which worked. His theory was that there was to much moisture trapped in the core of his piece not allowing the glue to dry properly because of the number of laminations. Gave it a try and it worked !!.. made my board in two pieces and just to make sure I bought a small fiberglass repair kit that came with just enough epoxy to cover both faces and it worked a treat. Still can't say for certain that the problem was moisture trapped in the core of the piece but here's a shot of the piece so far ...PS still haven't applied graphics, paint and waiting on wheels Thanks for all the info guys as always I really appreciate the wisdom. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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