Attaching fence post to house

[L2090301]

1 hour ago, Tom King said:

Sounds like the inspector just wants it secure enough to be safe.   I'd go with the plan not to drill holes in the house, and ask the inspector if that is okay first.

Agreed, safety was his reasoning....Also, the post located 43" oc, from house is the gate latch post, so he "does not want movement here".

Which plan, not to drill holes in the house?

[Isaac]

4 minutes ago, L2090301 said:

Thanks!

No, definitely not in a cold climate location...Quite the opposite. 

Not sure, what you mean by, setting this post further out and cantilever?

Just saying, could this post be set a foot away from your building, and have the last bit of fencing cantilever from the post towards the residence. It depends on the specific fence design. 

[Coop]

10 minutes ago, Isaac said:

Just saying, could this post be set a foot away from your building, and have the last bit of fencing cantilever from the post towards the residence. It depends on the specific fence design. 

+100%

[L2090301]

2 hours ago, Chestnut said:

Question 1 why do you have a cast iron pipe that shallow?

Question 2 why not attach it to the concrete slab? 24" buried and a bracket there will be enough that your inspector shouldn't be able to "push it over". I'd  screw a large flat bracket to the post so that it over hangs and then screw the bracket to the concrete kind of like a newel post except on the side.

Ask the inspector to prove it. Show me the code dude! I get called on specs all the time. If he complains tell him it's his job.

1. I don’t know, just found it there...It runs back under driveway, on one side and walkway, on other side.

2. Hmm?  Sounds interesting!  Can’t quite picture the bracket, you’ve described but are you talking about attaching the post to the foundation, of the house, directly below it OR to the driveway, on side of it?

[RichardA]

He's in South Florida guys, the fence is alligator protection.

[Chestnut]

1 hour ago, L2090301 said:

1. I don’t know, just found it there...It runs back under driveway, on one side and walkway, on other side.

2. Hmm?  Sounds interesting!  Can’t quite picture the bracket, you’ve described but are you talking about attaching the post to the foundation, of the house, directly below it OR to the driveway, on side of it?

So like you'd attach it to the side of the house just move down to the side of the driveway slab. You could do the foundation but again could put water where you don't want it.  The pavement should be 3-4" thick should be enough to secure it.

 

So Imigine the piece of walnut is your post and the metal is a bracket. Screw the bracket to the post and the post to your driveway.

[L2090301]

1 hour ago, RichardA said:

He's in South Florida guys, the fence is alligator protection.

You ain't kiddin'!...

https://www.local10.com/news/florida/broward/davie-alligator-attack

[RichardA]

1 hour ago, L2090301 said:

You ain't kiddin'!...

https://www.local10.com/news/florida/broward/davie-alligator-attack

I know, I spent 16 years in Broward county.  Dania, Hollywood, Hallendale , Davie and Ft Lauderdale.

[L2090301]

On 6/30/2018 at 12:11 AM, wtnhighlander said:

I'm guessing the foundation footing extends out from the walls and prevents you from digging a post hole adjacent. The call that a brick ledge around here.

Personally, I would prefer to set the post in the ground as close as I could, then cantelever the cross members and pickets past the post to cover the gap between it and the wall. Shouldn't be more than a couple of feet.

In my area, local codes allow quite a few things to be constructed without permits or inspections, provided they do not form, or directly attach to, a dwelling.

 

On 6/30/2018 at 10:06 AM, Isaac said:

Just saying, could this post be set a foot away from your building, and have the last bit of fencing cantilever from the post towards the residence. It depends on the specific fence design. 

 

On 6/30/2018 at 10:16 AM, K Cooper said:

+100%

Excuse my ignorance, but still not sure what it means to “cantilever” and where you’d set post to do so.  

FWIW: My online “cantilever fence” search, found a lot of sliding gates.

[L2090301]

On 6/30/2018 at 12:28 PM, Chestnut said:

So like you'd attach it to the side of the house just move down to the side of the driveway slab. You could do the foundation but again could put water where you don't want it.  The pavement should be 3-4" thick should be enough to secure it.

 

So Imigine the piece of walnut is your post and the metal is a bracket. Screw the bracket to the post and the post to your driveway.

Thanks, that’s very helpful!

FWIW: If I could dig down 24”, I’d set the post in concrete, to meet code but I hit foundation, within 10”.  That’s why, I thought you may have meant to attach from bottom, as well.

That said, I went bracket and brace shopping,  and found these.  One for the bottom, which I can attach to foundation and one for the side...But the side type, I could not find for 4x4, only 2x4.

Thoughts?

[L2090301]

FWIW: More pics: Original fence, foundation & cast iron pipe...

 

 

[Isaac]

14 minutes ago, L2090301 said:

 

 

Excuse my ignorance, but still not sure what it means to “cantilever” and where you’d set post to do so.  

FWIW: My online “cantilever fence” search, found a lot of sliding gates.

Sorry for the confusion. A cantilever is just an unsupported end. It would help a lot to see the actual fence type. Does the fencing run between the posts, or in front of them? Horizontal slats or vertical, etc?

[L2090301]

4 minutes ago, Isaac said:

Sorry for the confusion. A cantilever is just an unsupported end. It would help a lot to see the actual fence type. Does the fencing run between the posts, or in front of them? Horizontal slats or vertical, etc?

Not a problem, thanks for clarifying.  If I’m understanding, perhaps set a post between cast iron pipe and gate latch post, then leave the remaining rails and pickets unsupported...?

My plan is to run the rails in front of posts with vertical pickets, similar to these but have not decided on height of posts...

[Isaac]

1 minute ago, L2090301 said:

Not a problem, thanks for clarifying.  If I’m understanding, perhaps set a post between cast iron pipe and gate latch post, then leave the remaining rails and pickets unsupported...?

My plan is to run the rails in front of posts with vertical pickets, similar to these but have not decided on height of posts...

Ok great. Yes, I think you've got it.

With this type of fence, imagine if the last post, instead of being right up next to the house, was instead located 1 or 2 feet away from the house. The three horizontal boards would go past the post and run up against the house (I'd leave a small gap, of course). This extension of those three horizontal boards is the cantilever I was getting at. You wouldn't want to push the limits and have this length too long, but for a short distance it should be fine. 

That being said, you'll need to decide it that is acceptable aesthetically, or if you can change your post spacing to make this more regular in the overall scheme. 

[L2090301]

2 hours ago, Isaac said:

Ok great. Yes, I think you've got it.

With this type of fence, imagine if the last post, instead of being right up next to the house, was instead located 1 or 2 feet away from the house. The three horizontal boards would go past the post and run up against the house (I'd leave a small gap, of course). This extension of those three horizontal boards is the cantilever I was getting at. You wouldn't want to push the limits and have this length too long, but for a short distance it should be fine. 

That being said, you'll need to decide it that is acceptable aesthetically, or if you can change your post spacing to make this more regular in the overall scheme. 

Great, thanks!  By George, I think I've got it!

Aesthetically, not a big deal, to me, since it's on my side and not in neighbor's view but at this point there's no changing my post spacing to make this more regular in the overall scheme....48" is code AND close enough.  ;o

OK, so with 43" oc, from house to gate latch post, splitting the difference would put post at 21 1/2 inches, of unsupported cantilever; approx. 11 1/2 inches from cast iron pipe.  That said, with this type of fence, what length is typically considered too long and pushing the limits?

[Chestnut]

30 minutes ago, L2090301 said:

Great, thanks!  By George, I think I've got it!

Aesthetically, not a big deal, to me, since it's on my side and not in neighbor's view but at this point there's no changing my post spacing to make this more regular in the overall scheme....48" is code AND close enough.  ;o

OK, so with 43" oc, from house to gate latch post, splitting the difference would put post at 21 1/2 inches, of unsupported cantilever; approx. 11 1/2 inches from cast iron pipe.  That said, with this type of fence, what length is typically considered too long and pushing the limits?

I think I'd go with the over hang as opposed to my idea. I get stuck in the world there the  timbers have to terminate at the posts and don't think about things like that some times. My idea would work but when there is a better way might as well do it.

[Isaac]

23 minutes ago, L2090301 said:

Great, thanks!  By George, I think I've got it!

Aesthetically, not a big deal, to me, since it's on my side and not in neighbor's view but at this point there's no changing my post spacing to make this more regular in the overall scheme....48" is code AND close enough.  ;o

OK, so with 43" oc, from house to gate latch post, splitting the difference would put post at 21 1/2 inches, of unsupported cantilever; approx. 11 1/2 inches from cast iron pipe.  That said, with this type of fence, what length is typically considered too long and pushing the limits?

In terms of resisting lateral (wind) loads against the fence, each post will pick up half the tributary area of fencing to each side, or 24" each way (48" total). So you should be fine, as far as that. 

If you are concerned about sag, you could stiffen that section with  diagonals members, between the 3 horizontals.  This is what is commonly done for the fence doors, which are essentially cantilevers, just they are attached with hinges. In your case, it will be much less prone to sagging because of the back span to the adjacent column. 

Something like this, though it wouldn't be a door section. The biggest concern with bracing it like this is it will look a bit like another door!

 

[L2090301]

On 7/3/2018 at 3:19 PM, Chestnut said:

I think I'd go with the over hang as opposed to my idea. I get stuck in the world there the  timbers have to terminate at the posts and don't think about things like that some times. My idea would work but when there is a better way might as well do it.

 

On 7/3/2018 at 3:20 PM, Isaac said:

In terms of resisting lateral (wind) loads against the fence, each post will pick up half the tributary area of fencing to each side, or 24" each way (48" total). So you should be fine, as far as that. 

If you are concerned about sag, you could stiffen that section with  diagonals members, between the 3 horizontals.  This is what is commonly done for the fence doors, which are essentially cantilevers, just they are attached with hinges. In your case, it will be much less prone to sagging because of the back span to the adjacent column. 

Something like this, though it wouldn't be a door section. The biggest concern with bracing it like this is it will look a bit like another door!

 

Thanks!

Took a while to hear back from inspector, go figure...

Yesterday, I was surprised by his reply, when I told him, 43" oc from last post (gate latch post) to house and asked him if I could split the distance and place a post, at 21 1/2", in concrete to code, then cantilever i.e. leave unsupported 21 1/2", towards house...

Inspector said, with 43" oc from last post, I didn't even have to add another post, which code calls for every 48" and he would allow all 43" to be cantilevered. 

Hmm?  Didn't see THAT coming...But, sounds good...No digging & no concrete to mix.  That said, to me, 43" seems too far, to cantilever, in a HIgH VelocIty HurrIcane Zone aka HVHZ.

Thoughts?

[Tpt life]

Typical cantilever short math for structural top loading is 2/3 supported, 1/3 cantilevered. This is somewhat flexible as you have wide posts as attachment points and a fence does not carry a huge top load.   That said, I would not recommend cantilevering more than a third of that 48”. Wind load is no joke. 

[L2090301]

2 hours ago, Tpt life said:

Typical cantilever short math for structural top loading is 2/3 supported, 1/3 cantilevered. This is somewhat flexible as you have wide posts as attachment points and a fence does not carry a huge top load.   That said, I would not recommend cantilevering more than a third of that 48”. Wind load is no joke. 

Thanks!

With 43” oc, from last post to house, 1/3 cantilevered, would put a post at approximately 14 1/3”, from house, as opposed to leaving 1/2 cantilevered, and putting a post at 21 1/2”

Hmm? That would put post much closer to cast iron piping. But, I agree about wind load, not being a joke, especially in HVHZ. That’s why I was surprised by inspector’s reply.