general finishes dye stain under endurovar

[darty]

I'm going to be using their dye stain on a desk and top coating with endurovar. How long should I let the dye dry before the endurovar is brushed on? I did a test board and the enduro "pulled" some of the stain off. I'm using a foam brush if that matters.

[RenaissanceWW]

Endurovar is a water based product. So is your dye. Dye is really just dirt (pigment) that you have brushed on. When it dries completely the water has evaporated and left the dirt on the surface and in the pores. Adding another water based product over top "activates" the dye and some will pull off. Your best best is to seal the dye in with a wash coat of shellac first. Use a 1/2 lb or 1 lb cut, or Zinsser's Seal Coat and you will stop this from happening.

[AceHoleInOne]

Hang on….Enduro-Var is a little different animal!

General Finishes advises not to use any sealer under the Enduro-Var, due to the fact, it’s “self sealing.” If using a sealer, you should contact General Finishes..that's what they tell us??????

Now, I am gonna tell you…you can!!!…(because I asked)... But….only over a very thin coat, about close to a half pound cut of shellac as you can get and 1 coat only. Please use test boards to check for “adhesion issues.” Over-sealing, can cause the finish to pullback and not adhere. Don't ask me how I know :rolleyes: :rolleyes:. General Finishes understands every woodworker uses shellac differently...so they caution us!!!!!!

Spraying is the best option!!! But you can brush or roll the Enduro-Var over the dye. Since your doing a large surface??? (desk) brush the 1st coat on in one direction and don't over-work the finish...the goal is to get it on and seal the surface. Work with a few clean brushes. If your brush is starting to pick up dye. Switch to a clean one and check your finish to make sure your not introducing too much color to the finish from the brush.

-Ace-

[rick thom]

I agree with Ace 100%. I've had this experience with GF -w-b stains too.

[thewoodwhisperer]

One thing I'm curious about is just how much stain is being pulled up. A little is to be expected but a lot is somewhat unusual. GF water-based dyes are not exactly the equivalent of a powdered dye mixed with water. They do contain some binder and as a result, topcoats SHOULD not pull up an excessive amount of color. I routinely use their dyes and then topcoat without the aid of an intermediate sealer like de-waxed shellac. So unless you really are seeing noticeable holidays after brushing on your topcoat, I would say you are fine to continue with this process. Let that first coat of finish be your "sealer". Of course if you are seeing bare spots, then that light coat of dewaxed shellac sounds like a good solution.

Oh and to answer your question directly, water-based dyes are ready to be top-coated or sealed as soon as they are dry to the touch. This is usually within 30 minutes but it never hurts to give it a couple of hours.

[darty]

Thanks for all the help. I think I wasn't giving the dye/stain enough time to dry, and I was over working it. I ended up using a foam brush and laying on a coat and leaving it alone to level itself. I still picked up a little color on the first coat but not enough to matter in the final finish.

[Dynablue]

As mentioned make sure you use dewaxed shellac if you want anything to stick to it. Zinsser sealcoat cans state 100% dewaxed because they process it enough to pull the 5% or so, if memory serves, of natural wax from the product. Many flakes and buttons are not dewaxed and you should always assume wax unless the container specifically states otherwise.

The cautionary statement by GF is to free them from blame if your final coat peels off in nice sheets In reality I have used sealcoat under many urethane finishes and only had a problem once. Another possible defect when using shellac under another film finish is that the shellac shrinks more than many finishes and can crack or craze the topcoat. An unintentional crackle finishing, if you will.