TerryMcK Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 I'm doing a shop upgrade at the moment and need suggestions about what type of fluorescent lamps to use. I want high frequency flicker free, with no stroboscopic effects, daylight intensity lighting and am confused by the many different types on the market (T4, T5, T8 phosphors etc). My shop is about 400 square feet and I think 8 twin tube lamps on a 2 x 4 grid will suffice and I will hang them with chains. Any advice from the community is welcome. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 I used six diffused pairs bright daylight 5500 kelvin in a 20 x 20 garage at 9 feet high. Works well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 I use T-8s, 800 series (daylight). 8 fixtures sounds about right. You may want to get quads because they are not that much more $$$ and the real work is hanging / wiring them... Like clamps, you can never have too much light... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 I use a few architect desk lamps with fluorescent flood light (150watt equivalent ) bulbs as additional light sources. Great to chase away shadows or cross-light a surface to see flaws while sanding. I get them at IKEA , they have a mount block that can be clamped to a bench or screwed to the wall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 I'm doing a shop upgrade at the moment and need suggestions about what type of fluorescent lamps to use. I want high frequency flicker free, with no stroboscopic effects, daylight intensity lighting and am confused by the many different types on the market (T4, T5, T8 phosphors etc). My shop is about 400 square feet and I think 8 twin tube lamps on a 2 x 4 grid will suffice and I will hang them with chains. Any advice from the community is welcome. Terry Terry, at 400 sq/ft, you don't need that many lights. I would suggest you use this free software, http://www.visual-3d...e/download.aspx I'm sorry that I'm neglectful in posting on my blog. I've been wanting to do a more in depth FAQ on what I've done on my shop with energy in mind. In my day job, I'm an energy efficiency consultant at a public utility. While my passion is in the residential field, my focus at work is commercial, industrial and agriculture. The suggestion of using task lighting is a very good one. I have a lot of task lighting that can be moved where it needs to be on a french cleat system. For picking out the lamp and ballast, I would suggest going with a 5000K T-8 lamp. High output T-5 lamps are for high bay application of at least 16 feet or higher. Their intensity is far too much for what most people will find a comfortable light. 5000K is a nice white light color that will give you really good visual acuity. Be sure to pick a lamp and ballast combination that is on the Consortium for Energy Efficiency approved lighting list. These are lamps and ballasts that meet the higher energy efficiency criteria of most energy efficiency programs. The average life is now 35,000 hours and better. Stick to 4' fixture configurations, as 4' lamps are less expensive and much easier to store and handle. There are other technologies, but the price goes up considerably. Induction and LED are two that have very long life and very good efficiency. CEE is here: http://www.cee1.org/...om-lt-main.php3 I'll try to get something written on my blog in the not too distance future. Meanwhile, and after, if you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Btw, the flicker you refer to is something specific to the T12 technology. They cycle at 60Hz, which our brain can perceive. It can lead to head aches and can create a strobe affect with spinning blades, if timed just right. Newer fluorescent lamps/ballasts cycle at 20,000Hz and faster, so the flicker is no longer an issue, even in the cheaper lamps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 In the winter when we keep the loading dock door closed we use a tripod mounted pair of 500 watt halogen floodlights for additional illumination. If the glare is a problem we bounce the light off the warehouse ceiling, which is painted white . They do get quite hot but that is a bonus in the winter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Terry, at 400 sq/ft, you don't need that many lights. I would suggest you use this free software, http://www.visual-3d...e/download.aspx I'm sorry that I'm neglectful in posting on my blog. I've been wanting to do a more in depth FAQ on what I've done on my shop with energy in mind. In my day job, I'm an energy efficiency consultant at a public utility. While my passion is in the residential field, my focus at work is commercial, industrial and agriculture. The suggestion of using task lighting is a very good one. I have a lot of task lighting that can be moved where it needs to be on a french cleat system. For picking out the lamp and ballast, I would suggest going with a 5000K T-8 lamp. High output T-5 lamps are for high bay application of at least 16 feet or higher. Their intensity is far too much for what most people will find a comfortable light. 5000K is a nice white light color that will give you really good visual acuity. Be sure to pick a lamp and ballast combination that is on the Consortium for Energy Efficiency approved lighting list. These are lamps and ballasts that meet the higher energy efficiency criteria of most energy efficiency programs. The average life is now 35,000 hours and better. Stick to 4' fixture configurations, as 4' lamps are less expensive and much easier to store and handle. There are other technologies, but the price goes up considerably. Induction and LED are two that have very long life and very good efficiency. CEE is here: http://www.cee1.org/...om-lt-main.php3 I'll try to get something written on my blog in the not too distance future. Meanwhile, and after, if you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Btw, the flicker you refer to is something specific to the T12 technology. They cycle at 60Hz, which our brain can perceive. It can lead to head aches and can create a strobe affect with spinning blades, if timed just right. Newer fluorescent lamps/ballasts cycle at 20,000Hz and faster, so the flicker is no longer an issue, even in the cheaper lamps. Wow Vic, that software is awesome. It really is good and is a great help. Thanks for all the advice - T8s it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 You're welcome, Terry. I'll hopefully amass a set of questions for topics for a shop building set of posts for my blog. New building is always easier to offer advise, as retrofit stuff is very specific to what is happening in the space and most often requires an in person inspection. I'm glad you like the tool. On my breaks at work, I'm trying to find several other easy to use calculators. I'm going to have to call a friend and see where his simplified Manual J resides. I know I've seen it on the net. It's a very simple tool for calculating heating/cooling requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilburpan Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 This is how I worked out how many lights to put into my basement shop. 1. My goal was 75-100 foot-candles of light at my workspace, based on a FWW article on shop lighting. My shop is 10'x20', or 200 square feet. 2. Multiply 75-100 foot-candles by 200 square feet gives me 15000-20000 lumens of light total in my shop. 3. Throw in some fudge factors to account for the distance from the fixture to the work surface and loss of efficiency over time due to dust and aging bulbs, and that essentially doubles to 30000-40000 lumens. 4. I wanted to use 4' "Natural Daylight" T-8 tubes which put out about 2200 lumens apiece, this means I'll need 13-19 fluorescent tubes in my shop, which works out to about 6-10 2 bulb fixtures. So, my plan was to put in a total of 8 4' 2-bulb fluorescent fixtures in my 10' x 20' shop. As it turned out, at first I could only install 5 fixtures, due to low ceilings, and the way that ducts and plumbing ran across the ceiling of my basement workshop. I wish I had room for three more. I was able to shoehorn an additional fixture above my bench, which I am very glad for. As far as your fixtures go, I got mine from the local borg. Don't cheap out and get the least expensive ones. Get the better ones. The ballast will be better quality, and the fixtures I have also separate the two fluorescent bulbs more than the cheaper ones do, which results in a more even spread of light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Wilbur, what lamps did you use? 2200 is pretty low for lumen output. The 5000k I usually use in warehouse/production type facilities are ~2600 mean lumens and I use a high ballast factor ballast which drive them at 118%. I hadn't mentioned fixture efficiency. Thanks for pointing that out. Fixtures also have rated efficiencies and are not all equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilburpan Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 The bulbs I got were Philips, from the local borg, and a few years old by now. I tried to figure out the model, but apparently they don't put that info on the bulb anther that I can see. I think at the time I had to sacrifice some lumens for better CRI. In any case, at 2600 lumens per bulb, that works out to 12-16 bulbs, which equals 6-8 fixtures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Yea, the calculator I posted is supposed to be fairly easy to use. I haven't had the chance to play with it, since I found out about it. But free is always a good price. Today I finally found the HVAC sizing spreadsheet I've been looking for. I think all I can do on that is post the link. I'll do that on my site, because I'll want to explain it a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilburpan Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 The calculator is a little hard to use if you aren't running Windows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 The calculator is a little hard to use if you aren't running Windows. Sorry Wilbur. I wasn't aware of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joraft Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 I can highly recommend http://www.contractorlighting.com as a supplier. They have a complete line of shop fixtures and lamps to choose from. The ones on the CEE list that Vic mentioned are clearly marked. I have a 17' ceiling in my shop so I ordered the T-5 High Output High Bay fixtures. 4 lamps per fixture, 20,000 lumen output, 5000K color temperature. The over all quality of the fixtures is far superior to anything I've seen in any local store. Shipping was free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 blessings and curses... My shop is really split in two parts. here's a photo of the lighting for the more useful half... The other half.... no outlets at all, so I need options. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarton22 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 ike clamps, you can never have too much light... This is the real rule of lighting your shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 You actually can have too much light, especially in terms of glare, but without spending a fortune, it's not really easy to get to that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 In the afternoons, I get washout, meaning I can't even see the lines I'm standing over. And if I turn around, my shadow covers the workpiece, so I can't see the lines.... I'd recommend anybody working outside stands facing either west or east, instead of north.... It's really a pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Head Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 In staying with shop lighting questions. Do people ever install recessed lighting to give more room when moving long boards, etc. Is there an option of recessed lighting that is affordable if doing a whole shop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 A typical 4 lamp commercial T8 fixture will fit nicely between a 2' OC truss configuration. Just cut the hole and install the fixture. Just be sure to air seal and properly insulate after installation. The only reason I didn't do that is because I have 10' ceilings and I'm lazy. (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted July 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 I have updated my blog so you can see what I have ended up doing with Vic's help in finding that excellent lighting design software. Here is the link to my blog http://tmcwoodworks....hop-update.html I'm using 8 x twin tube 5 foot 58 watt T8s in daylight. I'm re-modelling the shop so the combination of Sketchup and Visual (hopefully) means I will get my new shop right the first time (famous last words!). I think Marc will be up and running in his brand new shop by the time I get my new roof on though 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 I have updated my blog so you can see what I have ended up doing with Vic's help in finding that excellent lighting design software. Here is the link to my blog http://tmcwoodworks....hop-update.html I'm using 8 x twin tube 5 foot 58 watt T8s in daylight. I'm re-modelling the shop so the combination of Sketchup and Visual (hopefully) means I will get my new shop right the first time (famous last words!). I think Marc will be up and running in his brand new shop by the time I get my new roof on though Really awesome shop drawings!! I REALLY need to learn SketchUp!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Thanks Vic, I have also just updated the blog entry with my diagram of the simple dust extraction ductwork run that I have in mind. Basically the side of the shop with the table saw and router table already have their own dust collectors. In the power tool nook where the jointer/planer, spindle sander and bandsaw are located I have been able to put a larger dust extractor (unfortunately not a cyclone) which is mobile so I can park it when I need to access something else. This way it give me full flexibility to roll machinery about and just service that side of the shop. I didn't want to have a centralized collector for the entire shop with the complications with long convoluted runs. Keep it simple and utilize what I already have. The lighting has been positioned so I am not working in my own shadow and I may incorporate local task lighting with small portable lamps too. The 3D picture show a few 3D men but that is only for scale and for me to work out if I have left enough room to operate the machines. With reference to the Sketchup Layout I have been able to produce a bill of materials for all the various components of the ductwork. I can really recommend learning Sketchup and I urge all fellow woodworkers to have a look at it. I was an Autocad professional user for many years and that has a very steep learning curve. Sketchup is far easier to learn and people, including myself, contribute models to the 3D warehouse so that other people can use those models in their own designs. Apart from the shop layout I have also been using it to design my furniture on it too. At the moment I am still designing my guitars using Autocad as I came from a manual 2D drafting background when CAD was in its infancy. However my next stringed instrument design will be on Sketchup and I'm looking forward to the challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 ==> The only reason I didn't do that is because I have 10' ceilings and I'm lazy. +1... Installed 20 4' quad T-8s over a weekend.... Funny, i never got around to air-sealing them... Go figure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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