End grain to end grain joint

[rodger.]

I know the finger joint is king here, but are there other methods that are nearly as good? I need some very long walnut boards (13 feet) that I cannot find in rough stock and I am considering joining two pieces end to end to get the length I need. Then I can joint the edge square with a handplane or router.

I was thinking maybe a biscuit or spline, maybe dowels, or a floating tenon. Anyone have experience doing this?

[Beechwood Chip]

I have no experience, but I think a long half lap would be strongest. What kind of strength do you need? Is the joint going to be stressed in compression, tension, twist? If you don't need any strength, then any of the techniques you mentioned will be fine.

Here's a site with pictures of some unusual joints. Check out the "half lap splice", "cogged scarf", and "beveled lap splice".

[Boatworks Today]

Half laps are used all the time on boats (specifically on cap rails). If the grains are matched correctly it can look almost seamless.. General rule I've always followed was 4:1 (4" lap on each piece per inch of overall thickness) for non-structural joints..

[TRBaker]

I really liked that half lap dovetail splice too. That would look awesome.

[rodger.]

I have no experience, but I think a long half lap would be strongest. What kind of strength do you need? Is the joint going to be stressed in compression, tension, twist? If you don't need any strength, then any of the techniques you mentioned will be fine.

Here's a site with pictures of some unusual joints. Check out the "half lap splice", "cogged scarf", and "beveled lap splice".

Cool site. Thanks. The plan is to make a countertop, so the the work piece will have plenty of support from the cabinets below.

[Dave H]

A scarf joint is very strong they use it in boat building, and if you get a good grain match it would be nearly invisible.

[wdwerker]

I think a scarf joint looks good even on wider planks, especially if you match up the wood grain carefully. A slide compound miter saw can cut a pretty long scarf with a jig to clamp the board going straight in to the fence. I put a support or table in front of the saw to hold the board level .

Biscuit and glue the joint then re-rip the edges.

[Chris H]

Cool site. Thanks. The plan is to make a countertop, so the the work piece will have plenty of support from the cabinets below.

If you are just creating a "butcher block" counter surface, you don't need to join the boards on the ends. You will want to stagger your seams and then you can either biscuit or dowel along the sides (not end) to keep them tight. The strength comes from the parrellel running boards on the either side, and not the end joint.

[rodger.]

If you are just creating a "butcher block" counter surface, you don't need to join the boards on the ends. You will want to stagger your seams and then you can either biscuit or dowel along the sides (not end) to keep them tight. The strength comes from the parrellel running boards on the either side, and not the end joint.

I have read this before, and I agree with it. I am worried that if I do not join the end grains, I may have small gaps. If I join the end grains with some type of reinforcement, then I should have far less chance of gaps.

[rodger.]

I think a scarf joint looks good even on wider planks, especially if you match up the wood grain carefully. A slide compound miter saw can cut a pretty long scarf with a jig to clamp the board going straight in to the fence. I put a support or table in front of the saw to hold the board level .

Biscuit and glue the joint then re-rip the edges.

How long a scarf would you recommend?

[Bobby Slack]

A friend told me something about design long time ago.

Fake it or flaunt it. If you have great matching grain, then you have a solution. If you don't then express the joint and use the imperfection as a way of showing off joinery.

All ideas are good depending on the situation. Good luck and another great post. What a morning

[Guillaume Breton]

How long a scarf would you recommend?

from wikipedia, for what its worth:

The tapers are generally cut at an angle between 1:8 to 1:10. The ends of a plain scarf are feathered to a fine point which aids in the obscuring of the joint in the finished work, while in other forms of scarf the ends are frequently cut to a blunt "nib" which engages a matching shoulder in the mating piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarf_joint

more methods of joining 2 board end to end:

http://sawdustmaking.com/woodjoints/scarf.htm

[RenaissanceWW]

13' isn't really that long. Are you sure you can't find Walnut in that length. Too bad you aren't closer as I have a lot of 12' and longer Walnut. Of course any of the options above would work, but you might make a few more calls first since this length should be possible.

[rodger.]

13' isn't really that long. Are you sure you can't find Walnut in that length. Too bad you aren't closer as I have a lot of 12' and longer Walnut. Of course any of the options above would work, but you might make a few more calls first since this length should be possible.

I checked all three lumber yards in my surrounding area. I need 8/4 walnut, about 13 to 14 feet, depending upon the condition. I'll call some more places, but I I've had no luck so far. The only material I have found in these dimensions is maple and oak, designed for use in the milling of handrails for staircases.

[Chris H]

Why are you needing 8/4? If you want a beefier countertop, you could just put down plywood/mdf, and then you face it with 4/4 (probably 3/4 after planing) on top. For the face, just rip the face board at a 45 degree angle and do the same with a face piece. This would be a lot cheaper than 8/4 walnut, and it's actually pretty easy to do, if you have a reliable table saw. You can even go thicker than 8/4 if you want.

If you didn't want any seem, you could just do 8/4 on the face piece and plywood+4/4 for the rest.

Just a thought, you may need somthing different!

[rodger.]

Why are you needing 8/4? If you want a beefier countertop, you could just put down plywood/mdf, and then you face it with 4/4 (probably 3/4 after planing) on top. For the face, just rip the face board at a 45 degree angle and do the same with a face piece. This would be a lot cheaper than 8/4 walnut, and it's actually pretty easy to do, if you have a reliable table saw. You can even go thicker than 8/4 if you want.

If you didn't want any seem, you could just do 8/4 on the face piece and plywood+4/4 for the rest.

Just a thought, you may need somthing different!

I just finished the island a few months ago, and did it solid walnut. The island top is granite, and I paid a lot of money for it. I don't want to cheap out on the rest of the kitchen tops. Also, one end of the countertop will be exposed. The cost of the 8/4 is high for lumber, but inexpensive when compared to buying pretty much any other countertop. Granite runs in the thousands, and even inexpensive laminate is over 500 (with a seam) for the space I require. The cost of rough 8/4 walnut is 7.27 per bf. I need 13 feet, 26 inches wide, and 1.5 inches thick. So, that means roughly 60 bf (or 436 dollars).

[wdwerker]

Have you looked for air dried slabs? Even if you rip off a live edge , joint and plane the stock the colors are much more varied and vivid. Kiln dried walnut has muddier colors. You will need to get some excess lumber for waste, moldings, back splashes etc. 8/4 makes sense with an exposed end. Remember you only need to plane and sand the top surface so flaws can be relegated to the underside.

[SignWave]

Here is a link to a variety of scarf joints, several of which should be easy enough to make and still avoid a gap:

http://www.sawdustmaking.com/woodjoints/scarf.htm

[rodger.]

Have you looked for air dried slabs? Even if you rip off a live edge , joint and plane the stock the colors are much more varied and vivid. Kiln dried walnut has muddier colors. You will need to get some excess lumber for waste, moldings, back splashes etc. 8/4 makes sense with an exposed end. Remember you only need to plane and sand the top surface so flaws can be relegated to the underside.

Is the price of a slab typically much more expensive than kiln dried lumber?

[wdwerker]

Depends on where you buy it from. My North Georgia source is a little cheaper than the hardwood lumberyard I use, but the slab is only bandsawn and air dried for a year VS kiln dried planed and one edge straight line ripped. Thickness varied from 2 1/2 to 1 5/8 and there were some twists and cracks to work around. We made countertops out of it and kept the best live edge for the front. Used our Domino for alignment and to join a few mitered corners. Ripped then routed using a straight edge, planed on a jig to get the bottom flat the flipped and planed the top.

Watch the moisture content, one slab was 14 percent! We had enough to work around using it.

[rodger.]

Depends on where you buy it from. My North Georgia source is a little cheaper than the hardwood lumberyard I use, but the slab is only bandsawn and air dried for a year VS kiln dried planed and one edge straight line ripped. Thickness varied from 2 1/2 to 1 5/8 and there were some twists and cracks to work around. We made countertops out of it and kept the best live edge for the front. Used our Domino for alignment and to join a few mitered corners. Ripped then routed using a straight edge, planed on a jig to get the bottom flat the flipped and planed the top.

Watch the moisture content, one slab was 14 percent! We had enough to work around using it.

Thanks for the info. I'll do some researching today.

[Chris H]

I just finished the island a few months ago, and did it solid walnut. The island top is granite, and I paid a lot of money for it. I don't want to cheap out on the rest of the kitchen tops. Also, one end of the countertop will be exposed. The cost of the 8/4 is high for lumber, but inexpensive when compared to buying pretty much any other countertop. Granite runs in the thousands, and even inexpensive laminate is over 500 (with a seam) for the space I require. The cost of rough 8/4 walnut is 7.27 per bf. I need 13 feet, 26 inches wide, and 1.5 inches thick. So, that means roughly 60 bf (or 436 dollars).

So do you plan to leave the end grain showing on the ends? I think I was picturing a trim piece all the way around so that you would cover end grain. Either way will work, I think I was just invisioning something different. I totally agree that the walnut will be much cheaper than granite (and more beautiful imo), but I was thinking it could be even cheaper with 4/4.

Can't wait to see pictures!

[rodger.]

So do you plan to leave the end grain showing on the ends? I think I was picturing a trim piece all the way around so that you would cover end grain. Either way will work, I think I was just invisioning something different. I totally agree that the walnut will be much cheaper than granite (and more beautiful imo), but I was thinking it could be even cheaper with 4/4.

Can't wait to see pictures!

Yes, I would like to have the end grain show on the end. This tells the viewer that the counter top is actually solid wood. Plus, there is nothing wrong with a well cleaned up,exposed, end grain panel.

I will post some pictures of the island and work area when I get back to my laptop. I have been using nothing but my new iPad since I got it!

[wdwerker]

If you want to cover the end grain you need to allow for wood movement! A breadboard end or a sliding dovetail...something that will allow a 25"- 26" kitchen counter of solid walnut to move about an 1/8 inch over the seasons.

I like to sand the end grain with every grit that I have in succession untill it is glassy smooth. Show off the fact that the top is solid wood!

Don't forget to put some sort of finish on the underside before you install it, this will help control the moisture content in your counter.

We used Waterlox on our project.

[dwacker]

Is there a sink in this counter somewhere?