Chris H

New Shop Build

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Just now, Chris H said:

Thanks for feedback. Here is an updated pic. Image1463092041.654209.jpg

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Now you can start seeing visions of table saws, chop saw, roubo benches, dust collection..  It's a blank canvas for sure!  Congrats!

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23 hours ago, Janello said:

You can find pics of my shop and estesbubba on here using the search feature...he did his the same way. 

Do you have a link?  I am sure I am just missing it, but I wasn't sure what to search for. 

 

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2 hours ago, TIODS said:

Now you can start seeing visions of table saws, chop saw, roubo benches, dust collection..  It's a blank canvas for sure!  Congrats!

Not exactly a blank slate.  I have been schemeing for about 4 years since we bought the land.  My wife dreamed of a beautiful house, I dream about a metal barn....

Shop Layout.jpg

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Unfortunately, I can't blow that up and see what you have..  I'm sure you have a plan tho if you've been working on it that long.

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10 hours ago, Chris H said:

Do you have a link?  I am sure I am just missing it, but I wasn't sure what to search for. 

 

her'e's mine

here's mike's

 

 

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11 hours ago, Janello said:

her'e's mine

here's mike's

 

 

Awesome Threads!  Thanks for the links, and the posts.  Great resources, and gave me lots of things to think about!

 

Either of you have problems with condensation on your insulation?  

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16 minutes ago, Chris H said:

Awesome Threads!  Thanks for the links, and the posts.  Great resources, and gave me lots of things to think about!

 

Either of you have problems with condensation on your insulation?  

Nope, none whatsoever. The cast iron surfaces in my shop stay shiney year round. 

That's also attributed to having the split system with air and heat. You'll be suprised with the R19 how well it holds temp. My split system doesn't work very hard at all to maintain. In a heat wave i will run a fan sometimes to drop humidity. Other than that, its better than my house.

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I am sorry, holding heat well based on comfort is not a good measure of cost efficiency. You will never regret the best you can do. R-19 may be sufficient. I am not arguing that point. I am only saying that I could find a heater that would make R-3 comfortable. Cost to heat or cool in like shops with varying insulation regimes is the only good way to decide cost-benefit and the drop off for the return on investment. 

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I have R19 in my walls and R38 in my ceiling.  I do not have to cool in the summer and it's very quick to heat in the winter.  I live in WA so, we don't see the extremes that the OP does.

I use an electric (220 wall mounted) heater in the wife's quilting room (same building - same size as my shop) in the dead of winter and notice very little increase in my power bill.

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1 hour ago, C Shaffer said:

I am sorry, holding heat well based on comfort is not a good measure of cost efficiency. You will never regret the best you can do. R-19 may be sufficient. I am not arguing that point. I am only saying that I could find a heater that would make R-3 comfortable. Cost to heat or cool in like shops with varying insulation regimes is the only good way to decide cost-benefit and the drop off for the return on investment. 

I do agree but I'm basing my advise not on the fact that my shop is cool when I put the ac on and warm when i put the heat on. I am basing it on those times it is off and stays comfortable for hours on end. When i was insulating my shop I ran a propane blast heater. It took about a half hour to heat my whole shop to 70 when it was freezing outside and it stayed that way for about 5 or 6 hours where i was in a t-shirt. There are times the sun is baking all day and i walk in the shop after work. No AC running all night or day...and it's literally chilly in there from the night before. 

No rocket sciece here...it works and works well. With the exception of geo thermal (another expensive worm hole) a heat pump with a high seer rating is about as efficient as it gets.

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Either of you have problems with condensation on your insulation?  

This is not something someone can tell you unless they take the wall apart or check for cold spots with thermal imaging..

One of the reasons spray foam is far superior to fibreglass is that you eliminate any chance of convective looping within the wall cavities. Poorly installed fibreglass (which is most often the case, especially weekend warrior installation) is a recipe for problems within the cavity that you cannot see. Convective looping leads to heat loss and condensation within the cavity. Ive pulled apart walls and found small pockets of mold where this was happening. So unless the fibreglass is not properly installed it could lead to problems down the road and you surely wont be getting the rated R-value.

The other huge difference is the vdr. 100% impossible to get the same seal with 6mil poly as you will get with spray foam. Just the staples and nails alone will let much more moisture into your cavity vs spray foam. Air leakage is the number one cause of condensation amd eventually mold. Spray foam eliminates this issue.

For steel building I think the way to go is spray foam. It will also add ridgity to the structure.

Just trying to give some proper info so you can make the proper decison.

Good construction advice is hard to find because everyone is "pro" because they watch hgtv or they watched someone build their barn once.

Again, spray foam is crazy expensive but there is no comparison to fibreglass. Its like comparing a ferrari to a kia. You get what you pay for...

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7 minutes ago, shaneymack said:

 

This is not something someone can tell you unless they take the wall apart or check for cold spots with an infra red thermometer.

One of the reasons spray foam is far superior to fibreglass is that you eliminate any chance of convective looping within the wall cavities. Poorly installed fibreglass (which is most often the case, especially weekend warrior installation) is a recipe for problems within the cavity that you cannot see. Convective looping leads to condensation within the cavity. Ive pulled apart walls and found small pockets of mold where this was happening. So unless the fibreglass is not properly installed it could lead to problems down the road and you surely wont be getting the rated R-value.

The other huge difference is the vdr. 100% impossible to get the same seal with 6mil poly as you will get with spray foam. Just the staples and nails alone will let much more moisture into your cavity vs spray foam.

For steel building I think the way to go is spray foam. It will also add ridgity to the structure.

Just trying to give some proper info so you can make the proper decison.

Good construction advice is hard to find because everyone is "pro" because they watch hgtv or they watched someone build their barn once.

Again, spray foam is crazy expensive but there is no comparison to fibreglass. Its like comparing a ferrari to a dodge. You get what you pay for...

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I'll take the Dodge ;)

 

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I'll take the Dodge [emoji6]

 

I edited for the sensitive Americans that drive american vehicles ;)

....didnt mean to offend !

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3 minutes ago, shaneymack said:

I edited for the sensitive Americans that drive american vehicles ;)

....didnt mean to offend !

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No offense taken Shane..

Was a direct take on your post.  Yes, the spray foam does a great job and maybe even better than fiberglass bat insulation but, the price to benefit ratio is whacked..  Ranks right up there with what you pay for an extra 2 inches in a jointer.

Also, most of my Dodge was built in Canada ;)

 

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No offense taken Shane..

Was a direct take on your post.  Yes, the spray foam does a great job and maybe even better than fiberglass bat insulation but, the price to benefit ratio is whacked..  Ranks right up there with what you pay for an extra 2 inches in a jointer.

Also, most of my Dodge was built in Canada [emoji6]

 

I totally disagree. Thats why i build with it. But i actually don't think we pay as much here. Id have to double check my prices.

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4 minutes ago, shaneymack said:

I totally disagree. Thats why i build with it. But i actually don't think we pay as much here. Id have to double check my prices.

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It's used here as well Shane and is a great product.  Only going by the OP's estimates, I would go to fiberglass bat insulation.  I never had it quoted on my building.  When I built mine, I needed to insulate a payday at a time so, was an effective way to get it done.  Regardless, if I'd of been looking at numbers like his, the spray in would not have been an option.

Unless you disagreed with where my Dodge was built? ;)

 

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Just now, Pug said:

if not spray foam, at least go roxul - its great stuff, though far inferior to foam.

I agree, Roxul is great. Less itchy, better R value, much more sound absorbent, less air permeable, fire resistant, etc.

But it also requires a bit more care when installing because it is more rigid than fiberglass & can even sort of crumble if your too rough with it.

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It's used here as well Shane and is a great product.  Only going by the OP's estimates, I would go to fiberglass bat insulation.  I never had it quoted on my building.  When I built mine, I needed to insulate a payday at a time so, was an effective way to get it done.  Regardless, if I'd of been looking at numbers like his, the spray in would not have been an option.

Unless you disagreed with where my Dodge was built? [emoji6]

 

I totally agree with you that it is expensive and if its not in op's budget then its a no go. Im coming at this from a different perspective. People have no problem dropping 8k on crazy countertops but dont want to pay for sprayfoam becasue its expensive. That is just stupid. Its because most people only want the lipstick and could care less about the rest. If someone is going to be in a house for 40 years and spray foam is a 10k upgrade it should be a no brainer because of how much better of a product it is.

Now for a shop, i can totally understand the hesitation. Im just trying to give him an understanding on how much better it is.

I guess this is similar to the people that keep asking why someone would pay 600$ for a festool sander or 5k on a sawstop when they can get tools for so much cheaper.

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18 minutes ago, Pug said:

if not spray foam, at least go roxul - its great stuff, though far inferior to foam.

Can you expand on "Ruxol"?  This is not one I have heard of before.  When I Google it, it looks to be a brand priding itself on sound proofing.  Is there a particular product that they offer you'd recommend or have some experience with?

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1 minute ago, shaneymack said:

I totally agree with you that it is expensive and if its not in op's budget then its a no go. Im coming at this from a different perspective. People have no problem dropping 8k on crazy countertops but dont want to pay for sprayfoam becasue its expensive. That is just stupid. Its because most people only want the lipstick and could care less about the rest. If someone is going to be in a house for 40 years and spray foam is a 10k upgrade it should be a no brainer because of how much better of a product it is.

Now for a shop, i can totally understand the hesitation. Im just trying to give him an understanding on how much better it is.

I guess this is similar to the people that keep asking why someone would pay 600$ for a festool sander or 5k on a sawstop when they can get tools for so much cheaper.

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I don't disagree at all!  In the home, what's in the walls of your home is far more important than the rest!

The spray is better, there's no doubt.  But, for a shop, the cost to benefit ratio is way off per the OPs numbers.

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