Cabinet doors and drawer fronts direction

[JFII]

I hope i posted in the correct section.

I am a new wood worker and would like some direction on cutting stiles and rails for cabinet doors and drawer fronts.

I started a project to refinish my face frame cabinets. By simply painting them the drawers were falling apart so i new i would have to replace them.

I have completed the drawer boxes and have them installed with new undermount slides. I thought I could make new fronts by rounding over some paintable stock. The doors had external hinges and never closed properly always bouncing off the magnetic closures. After my success with the drawers I thought I could reuse the doors (upgrade them later) and install hidden self close hinges that i could reuse on new doors later. Unfortunately, the doors are not just full overlay but partially inset with a 3/8" lip. The self close hinges for these doors are not just monstrous in size but in price. Putting back on surface hinges would mean i would have to refinish the face frame again to cover the holes. Accepting i may no be done for the holidays I thought i could make the doors now. Rather than me doing trial and error, error, error I was hoping to get some direction.

I have chosen a simple door that I like but do not have the experience to know how to cut the stiles and rails and if i should uses some router bit to make the bevel or a jig to cut it on my table saw. included is a image of the doors and fronts but i also do not know what width stock for the stiles and rails. Also a complete list of openings and added .75" for the final product (image and spreadsheet)

.Thank you in advance for any input

John

Link to sizes https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JvfL8FfD5Zl_wZ3iJP7n5M14R21IrMaa/view?usp=sharing

[BillyJack]

You might want to stick with the original doors if possible..

What was the cost of the hinge? What brand?

[wtnhighlander]

The door profile is a nice modern look, good choice. The width of rails and styles are dictated by the tolerance for wood movement, and your personal taste. Considering that the panel appears to be plywood, rails & styles could vary a good deal to suit your eye, but typically would be around 2 to 2.5 inches in width. If you owned a shaper, cutters might be obtained to cut that profile in a single pass, but a router will require multiple passes, so won't be much, if any, faster than cutting at the tablesaw. To make that profile, I see one pass with the stick face down to establish the center shadowline, a pass on edge with a dado stack to cut the groove, and another edge pass over a tilted blade to establish the bevel. Not counting the chamfer or rounding of the outside edge.

The only accessories you would need is a featherboard and push stick(s). The most difficult part will be making the miters fit tight. And to be honest, I don't trust glue on miter joints. Even if you glue in a plywood panel, reinforcing the corners with a spline will ensure the joints don't separate.

[JFII]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:49 PM, BillyJack said:

You might want to stick with the original doors if possible..

What was the cost of the hinge? What brand?

I could maybe get them as low as $8.25 per hinge for an off brand compared to less than $2.00. But the size would rule out sliding shelves for the lower cabinets. (hands and knees to reach in)

[JFII]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:57 PM, wtnhighlander said:

The door profile is a nice modern look, good choice. The width of rails and styles are dictated by the tolerance for wood movement, and your personal taste. Considering that the panel appears to be plywood, rails & styles could vary a good deal to suit your eye, but typically would be around 2 to 2.5 inches in width. If you owned a shaper, cutters might be obtained to cut that profile in a single pass, but a router will require multiple passes, so won't be much, if any, faster than cutting at the tablesaw. To make that profile, I see one pass with the stick face down to establish the center shadowline, a pass on edge with a dado stack to cut the groove, and another edge pass over a tilted blade to establish the bevel. Not counting the chamfer or rounding of the outside edge.

The only accessories you would need is a featherboard and push stick(s). The most difficult part will be making the miters fit tight. And to be honest, I don't trust glue on miter joints. Even if you glue in a plywood panel, reinforcing the corners with a spline will ensure the joints don't separate.

Thank you for the kudos. It is a nice clean look.

Yes 2-2.5. No shaper , no joiner - yet(but i do have access for a price). I was reading about using biscuits for the corners (I would rent a biscuit joiner) and make corner jigs for glue up so then don't slide. I was also considering making some sort of adjustable sled for cutting the bevel but unsure i would get consistent results. I saw plans for a miter sled in a Woodsmith spinoff tips and techniques but didn't think it would give me a consistent cut.  Should i cut the bead first with a router or table saw? Then the bevels then the corners?  

Thanks again every nudge, question, answer and suggestion  helps.

[JFII]

9 hours ago, JFII said:

Thank you for the kudos. It is a nice clean look.

Yes 2-2.5. No shaper , no joiner - yet(but i do have access for a price). I was reading about using biscuits for the corners (I would rent a biscuit joiner) and make corner jigs for glue up so then don't slide. I was also considering making some sort of adjustable sled for cutting the bevel but unsure i would get consistent results. I saw plans for a miter sled in a Woodsmith spinoff tips and techniques but didn't think it would give me a consistent cut.  Should i cut the bead first with a router or table saw? Then the bevels then the corners?  

Thanks again every nudge, question, answer and suggestion  helps.

wtnhighlander

I do think you outlined the order in which to work. I just needed to read it again. One thing I am not so clear on is "one pass ... to establishing the center shadow line "

Thank you again.

 

[wtnhighlander]

@JFII, the front face of the profile includes a step-down in the center, transitioning from the flat to the bevel. While you might establish that small step during the bevel cut, that only allows the step to be 1 blade width deep, and it would have a slight angle that could splinter away. By cutting a shallow kerf along the face of the stock, held flat on the table, the step is square, and you can set the depth as you like. Use a featherboard and 'shoe' type push sticks to keep the stock tight to the fence and the table for a consistent cut. And use a ripping blade, preferably with a flat top grind, for the absolute cleanest result.

It isn't important if you cut the step or the panel groove first, but save the bevel for last, so that you keep your flat, square reference surfaces to the final cut. Tablesaw, push sticks, and featherboards are all you should need to make the profile. 

[JFII]

Sir,

The bead/kerf at the top of the bevel is for the tear out. I was going to test cut it both before and after cutting the bevel.

You have given me a good picture of what needs to be done, thank you very much for taking the time to do so.

I will post back the results of the project. I added some dimensions to the door profile.

John

 

[wtnhighlander]

Hi John, thanks for the drawing. It is a clearer illustration of the profile than what I could discern from the image, showing that kerf a bit deeper than I imagined. No reason you can't cut it after the bevel as well as before.

Do you have a dado stack to cut the panel groove? If not, you can "nibble" it away with a regular blade, it just takes longer. Remember to do one operation to ALL your rail stock before changing the machine setup, otherwise you run a huge risk of having a minor inconsistency that becomes a major eyesore when the miters don't match up exactly.

[Coop]

All great advise Ross! 

[JFII]

On 11/21/2020 at 5:08 PM, wtnhighlander said:

Hi John, thanks for the drawing. It is a clearer illustration of the profile than what I could discern from the image, showing that kerf a bit deeper than I imagined. No reason you can't cut it after the bevel as well as before.

Do you have a dado stack to cut the panel groove? If not, you can "nibble" it away with a regular blade, it just takes longer. Remember to do one operation to ALL your rail stock before changing the machine setup, otherwise you run a huge risk of having a minor inconsistency that becomes a major eyesore when the miters don't match up exactly.

Sir / Ross,

Thank you very much for your guidance (apprenticeship?) I hope your thanksgiving was enjoyable.

I built a sample from poplar and plywood and made these adjustments to what was shown in the drawing the angle for the bevel is 12°  , the bead was cut using a thin kerf blade 1/8" deep. I cut the bead after the bevel but it would have been better to cut it first as it was suggested. Besides from the displeasing stain (pecan) I put on the poplar and even though the miters seemed nearly perfect before glue-up some sort of sideways gravity or my not clamping them correctly caused a corner to slip (even though I might like to think it was this strange gravity most here would insist it was the clamping and hopefully offer suggestions). Another concern is cutting all the bevels with a thin kerf blade.

Best regards,

John

[wtnhighlander]

Nice work, John!  Maybe its the photo angle, but the miters look pretty tight to me. As for the color, the only way I know to make different wood species look close to the same is by using a gel stain (heavy pigment, stays on the surface) or paint. Otherwise, choosing species that compliment each other au naturale is the safer way to go. 

[JFII]

Thank you,

It was just a mock up with some scrap I had. What i am intending to build them with is the stiles and rails will be rift sawn red oak and the panels quarter sawn red oak. with a natural or pecan stain on the stiles and rails and just natural or just poly on the panels. I have also considered maple for the panels (and really liked birds eye when i saw it. Then I saw the price). With the panels I am trying for a slightly lighter color or shading than the stiles and rails. I used a program called MaxCut2 to build me a diagram and cultist so I only need 1 4x8 to do all the panels with some to spare trying the different finishing ideas. I have the slides all mounted in the cabinets and the drawers in them. (I'll post a drawer pic)

I am having some difficulty sourcing quarter sawn 1/4" red oak plywood A1 (or a2) the shipping charges were going to be more than the sheet. 

John

[wtnhighlander]

Since door stiles and rails are relatively small parts, you might find #1 or #2 common stock that provides plenty of clear sections between the defects, for a much better price. Quarter-sawn will be the problem, as almost no commercial mills saw red oak that way. If you can find a source that allows you to pick through the stacks, eventually you will find enough that was sawn rift or quartered at random.

[JFII]

1 hour ago, wtnhighlander said:

Since door stiles and rails are relatively small parts, you might find #1 or #2 common stock that provides plenty of clear sections between the defects, for a much better price. Quarter-sawn will be the problem, as almost no commercial mills saw red oak that way. If you can find a source that allows you to pick through the stacks, eventually you will find enough that was sawn rift or quartered at random.

That's what I have  been doing for the boards. Been to 9 different places and picked about 60 feet (I have learned to always bring gloves). However the sheets are different the best I have seen is C3. Even had my local guy order it in A3 but what he got he didn't even let them take it off the truck. (I wish he had at least let me see it ) He also ordered me in a plain sawn sheet at was nicely matched but 4 across I just don't want that V (cathedral?) look. I would like some sort natural chaos. Its a waiting game. I think its a holiday slow down on what is available. I may have to wait until after rather then settle. I will be the one looking at the cabinet doors every day.

Question -  2 of the top drawers are only 4" tall I was going to go with 1.5" stiles and rails. The other option is one piece or  one piece with a wide (1" or so) grove tapered like the doors if that's possible in the center. Your thoughts?

-John

[wtnhighlander]

I would just leave those small drawers solid.

[JFII]

On 12/19/2020 at 8:08 PM, wtnhighlander said:

I would just leave those small drawers solid.

I do like that idea. (maybe with just the kerf where it would be - It will be magic to get it right - another trick to learn) Thinking out loud. I liked that door for its simplicity. So before I pay the ransom to to acquire a sheet of quarter sawn red oak I am going to go hunting around town begging for some maple scraps and see how they look with a natural and 1 or 2 other light stains like the pecan stain compared to the oak and see if i can get a decision in my stocking by Friday. 

[pkinneb]

On 12/19/2020 at 7:08 PM, wtnhighlander said:

I would just leave those small drawers solid.

That's how I did my office 

PS no comments on the gaps this was one of my earlier projects, from over a decade ago 

[Chestnut]

On 12/21/2020 at 9:07 AM, pkinneb said:

 

PS no comments on the gaps this was one of my earlier projects, from over a decade ago

I think it looks ok. It doesn't really match your current style.

[JFII]

On 12/21/2020 at 10:07 AM, pkinneb said:

That's how I did my office 

PS no comments on the gaps this was one of my earlier projects, from over a decade ago 

Very nice. Mixing in with raised panels adds a twist. Fluting looks good too - I haven't been very good so far with my attempts on fluting. and the brushed SS pulls look great too (going to use the same on my cabinets), This i very inspirational thanks for sharing!

 

[JFII]

Well its been a long time. I had found a covid 'friend' and found myself being a handy man at her home (considering it had a working kitchen - I was eating well) My kitchen among other things moved slowly forward giving me time to think between tasks and of course forget what I had done last. I did get the drawers in a little before Christmas learning just how dusty my little workshop was and how much poly could 8 drawer fronts take. Most of what i thought was dust was really the oak breathing its bubbles (correction?). All the same 2 coats and sand with 320 - 3 x, 1 coat still a couple of bubbles / dust, used 400, 1 coat 400, 1 coat let dry 2 days and rubbed with a brown paper bag. The results I am very happy with. at this point. I thought about grain / sanding sealer. I  tried some variations of grain sealer but did not think I would be happy with the results but of course I didn't know what I was doing but i couldn't see the color ever matching. I had sprayed a couple of cars as a kid with lacquer it was about getting the space as clean as possible so I improvised. For your entertainment pictures attached. Next message - i got jiggy with it. I also spent a couple of hours in an ER right before Thanksgiving...

Oh one of the side distractions I made a couple of cutting boards - one when to the cook and the other I put above one of the drawers and instead of a pull knob I mount put behind it a spring-loaded push device so pushing it in would pop it out 

Please comment 

[JFII]

My time spent thinking i also was setting up to make the doors as one continuous motion for each step. wtnhighlander pointed out early on and it stuck was get ready and when you have the cut right cut them all. 

Now all i needed to do was get something i could repeat - making one is easy making 13 with 8 miter cuts per door was going to be a educational. The kerf, the bevel - each step was incredibly  enlightening. these next messages may bore some but i am just tying to pay it forward maybe help that light bulb go on for someone that happened here for me with the help I received. Please correct anything i may have done that is wrong or might have been done better or easier good advise is much appreciated

The first was to get the stiles and rails cut and I needed to miter them (up until then I don't think I ever cut a perfect miter - at least now looking back I was a piker) everywhere I read they all did an A / B side of cutting  the miters. I watched many YouTube videos and read many articles I happened on William Ng he made sense but i just wasn't getting it(my ability to understand not his method). My friend wanted me to make a sled that had these rails sticking out of it nearly 20 inches past the end i did ii was just so clumsy and in the way I really could not use it and label each board a or b why (I knew why but why couldn't  i cut a consistent miter) . There had to be a better way. So i stumbled onto an article from FineWoodWorking the link is locked but it was in a copy the last couple of months and seems to be a reprint of an article from SEPTEMBER 29, 2016 Build a table saw sled  - this is one that is very similar to it i found in wood magazine. https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/reader-submitted-shop-tips/miter-picture-frame.

The idea is to cut the rail or style to length then cut the miter using one side of the jig - NO a + B it took me a while to get it tuned in (there are more holes in the bottom)but it worked and it was much easier to get two pieces the same length while both are square..

[JFII]

OK,

So while I researched the best way to cut the miters i focused on the bevel and again focusing on consistency which meant once setup I should be able to cut them all. So I started making another jig. I would test a scrape then another and it didn't seem I was getting it right. Test after test, and it was a pain to adjust this jig. Now I know I should have thought of it sooner but I was assuming the boards were all the same dimensions and how wrong I was. (if I wasn't focusing on this as a production I may not have understood until much later - thank you sir) It was also shortly after that I remembered that the prototype I had made was from 7/8" stock not 3/4" which is what I had purchased. What I found was most of the boards were 3/4" some a little more the boards I had that were 23/32" or less I could not use (I still needed a 1/4" dado for the panel) so planed everything to 47/64" (I was a bit worried) the boards that were  23/32" or less were also less that 2-1/2" wide. Non were from the big box L@@@@ but the other place...

[wtnhighlander]

@JFII, your progress looks good. That miter cutting jig looks interesting. The idea of cutting the stock to perfect length while still square seems  sound, and the stop block on the sled seems effective. Did you notice any binding of the off-cut between the block and the blade? I assume that the angle would allow the waste piece to fall free, but with a square cut, using a stop block in that manner carries a great risk for kick-back.

[Coop]

On 7/20/2021 at 9:44 AM, wtnhighlander said:

@JFII, your progress looks good. That miter cutting jig looks interesting. The idea of cutting the stock to perfect length while still square seems  sound, and the stop block on the sled seems effective. Did you notice any binding of the off-cut between the block and the blade? I assume that the angle would allow the waste piece to fall free, but with a square cut, using a stop block in that manner carries a great risk for kick-back.

+1