Shop Heating

[CubsFan]

What's everyone's solution for heating your shop?

Since fall seems to be starting to set in, I realized that I'm going to need to get something if I want to do woodworking in the winter. My current thinking is a shop heater that probably runs on propane (I'm thinking that the gas line is too far to run to the garage). I've got a 2-car garage which is insulated on 1 wall, so I'll be putting in some insulation where I can on the other three. Really just want to get it warm enough so that it's workable, not trying to make it warm in there.

Anyway, anyone have a shop heater they really like?

[petersb]

My shop heater has been a space heater that I have to huddle next to just to keep warm. I have a small woodstove that I have now, however, I need to get just the right spot for it and pipe it out. So at the pace I work, I guess I will be huddling by the space heater again this winter!

Fortunately, it is a milder climate here than most, and I also have some insulated Carhart overalls that I wear and a warm hat.

[Bobby Slack]

Since my garage is not insulated at all I consider warming the shop a total waste of energy. I use backpacking long underwear, warm hat and carhartt overalls. My worm clothing comes from my backpacking hobby which now I can use that investment for two activities.

Last, I keep thinking of improving my garage but since I store wood in the rafters and want to keep my ceiling high, I probably will not heat up the shop for a while.

It helps living in Southern California by the beach, where we have a very warm winter and cool summer.

In my cabin in Colorado I have heated floors in my garage so that would answer the question for cool weather. The shop is in the bottom of the cabin and sort of nested in the mountain so I have very little exposure to the -20 weather.

[Chester]

In Michigan, I have used portable kerosene heaters for years. I am not recommending this to anyone because of the danger of sawdust combustion. But it has worked for me for a very long time without mishap. Only recently did I install both an air dust cleaner and a full shop dust collection system. And that will really improve the safety but I know that there have been times when the dust was thick enough in the air to distort vision ... and again, I am still here.

I keep my heaters on wheeled carts and usually move them to the area that is least congested based on my project. The second heater is only used to get the shop to temp in the coldest time of the year. My shop is in the upstairs of our small barn. The walls and ceiling are insulated ... but not the floor. Once I get it up to temp, I often have to crack a window to prevent the air from getting too warm. I would like to have a fixed natural gas overhead shop heater but the gas line install to the barn would be expensive.

[Bobby Slack]

Chester, I dream of having a shop in a barn one day, like the one that Garrett Hack has and I doubt it will happen ... Nice!

I am installing the light now and will have some pictures, may be I should be realistic and post chaotic pictures middle of the project pictures

In Michigan, I have used portable kerosene heaters for years. I am not recommending this to anyone because of the danger of sawdust combustion. But it has worked for me for a very long time without mishap. Only recently did I install both an air dust cleaner and a full shop dust collection system. And that will really improve the safety but I know that there have been times when the dust was thick enough in the air to distort vision ... and again, I am still here.

I keep my heaters on wheeled carts and usually move them to the area that is least congested based on my project. The second heater is only used to get the shop to temp in the coldest time of the year. My shop is in the upstairs of our small barn. The walls and ceiling are insulated ... but not the floor. Once I get it up to temp, I often have to crack a window to prevent the air from getting too warm. I would like to have a fixed natural gas overhead shop heater but the gas line install to the barn would be expensive.

[Lawrence Brown]

I have one of the kerosene heaters that looks like a jet engine. It's actually a bit oversized for the size of the shop, but that just means it heats it up almost instantly. In the winter I'll need to run it for a few minutes to warm the air up, and then as all the surfaces absorb the heat it turns on a bit every 15 minutes or so. Not the best solution, but it works. In the coldest months I sometimes hook it up to a remote I keep on my overalls so that whenever I feel cold, I just push the button for a blast of warm air and keep right on working.

You do need to be sure you have enough clear space in front of them though. If something is in the blast zone, it can easily go poof! I've always wanted to take the protector plate off the back just to see how far the flames shoot out

[Rutabagared]

CubsFan,

If possible, consider electric. I recommend it because there is no fuel to buy or store, no venting requirements, no concerns with carbon monoxide, and it is 100% efficient. In addition, a byproduct of hydrocarbon combustion is water vapor, which can create rust on cast iron surfaces, especially if your shop environment will undergo wide temperature variations. Electric heat eliminates this risk.

The one knock on electric has always been cost. However, with the spike in natural gas costs, fuel oil, and propane, electric is far more competitive now. I bought this heater from Northern Tool and have no complaints. My shop is roughly the same size as yours, a two-car detached garage, and it heats the space from 40F to 68F in about 10 minutes (just enough time to brew some java before heading into the shop). However, my shop is fully insulated.

Whatever you choose, make every effort to insulate - at least the ceiling/attic. It will make a huge difference. Good luck!

Joe

[Vic]

If you're going to be in your shop for at least five years, consider a ductless heatpump with cadet heaters for back up. That is the most efficient way to heat, short of a ground source heat pump. Regarding a ground source heat pump, the real efficiency comes when you use a well for source and dump the outgoing. In our state, you can do that only if it will ultimately flow into the same aquifer. An actual ground source will freeze the ground when in the heating mode and gets no where near the efficiencies claimed. The real beauty of a pump and dump "water" source heat pump is a constant input temp of around 55. You NEVER need back up.

[SamV]

What's everyone's solution for heating your shop?

Since fall seems to be starting to set in, I realized that I'm going to need to get something if I want to do woodworking in the winter. My current thinking is a shop heater that probably runs on propane (I'm thinking that the gas line is too far to run to the garage). I've got a 2-car garage which is insulated on 1 wall, so I'll be putting in some insulation where I can on the other three. Really just want to get it warm enough so that it's workable, not trying to make it warm in there.

Anyway, anyone have a shop heater they really like?

I've been very pleased with my electric shop heater I installed over a year ago. I bought it at HD or Lowes for a modest price. Running a new 220v line to the opposite corner of the garage for the wiring was a one evening task if you're comfortable with basic electrical work since my breaker panel is in my garage and the little corner shelf is it for instalation. The heater has been off since spring but even thru some cold fronts last winter it will easily heat my two car garage past toasty. It has a low setting and thermastat that will keep my dogs happy in the shop and finishes from freezing over when the mercury drops to single digits outside without breaking the bank. Really I've been impressed, I add a fan to keep the air moving and even out the temperature in the far corner when I'm in the shop sharpening. Next is some simple insulation (mylar reflects light back into the shop) and weather stripping for the garage door to keep out the drafts (and spiders) and hopefully keep more heat in.

Info: Cadet "the hot one" 220v

Viall8r

Yelm, Wa

[Vic]

I've been very pleased with my electric shop heater I installed over a year ago. I bought it at HD or Lowes for a modest price. Running a new 220v line to the opposite corner of the garage for the wiring was a one evening task if you're comfortable with basic electrical work since my breaker panel is in my garage and the little corner shelf is it for instalation. The heater has been off since spring but even thru some cold fronts last winter it will easily heat my two car garage past toasty. It has a low setting and thermastat that will keep my dogs happy in the shop and finishes from freezing over when the mercury drops to single digits outside without breaking the bank. Really I've been impressed, I add a fan to keep the air moving and even out the temperature in the far corner when I'm in the shop sharpening. Next is some simple insulation (mylar reflects light back into the shop) and weather stripping for the garage door to keep out the drafts (and spiders) and hopefully keep more heat in.

Info: Cadet "the hot one" 220v

Viall8r

Yelm, Wa

That is basically what I used in my old shop and, as you said, for a smaller space it heats rather quickly. It's not the most efficient way to heat, but the unit itself isn't too expensive, so it will take a while to rack up the difference in what is a more efficient heat source, at least here in the northwest where we have clean, cheap and renewable dam power!!

[PaulMarcel]

Okay, so I know 32-45 as a low isn't gonna impress anybody, but I keep the garage door open when I work and let the cold air in. Over the 5 months of summer, my body stores approximately three class G suns worth of heat so the cool air helps to take it back out.

Mostly just use a radiant dish heater at one end of the long bench wall. Wherever I am along the benches, I get radiant heat instantly. It's like running a 100W bulb.

[TomP]

Since my area is in the back section of the garage, I drop down a couple of sheets and use a free standing heater with a fan. It helps, but so does dressing for the situation. During the day on the week ends aren too bad. During the week with temp in the teens or worse, I stay in the warm house

[Vic]

Okay, so I know 32-45 as a low isn't gonna impress anybody, but I keep the garage door open when I work and let the cold air in. Over the 5 months of summer, my body stores approximately three class G suns worth of heat so the cool air helps to take it back out.

Mostly just use a radiant dish heater at one end of the long bench wall. Wherever I am along the benches, I get radiant heat instantly. It's like running a 100W bulb.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's more like running a 1000W bulb on low and a 1500W bulb on high. "Just sayin'" <<<< for Marc ;o)

[sdkidaho]

Thanks for the Northern Tool link - once I got looking I found this one: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200307959_200307959 I like the looks of that - it should work good in my shop, no matter what I decide to do inside.

I do wonder about one like this as well: http://www.heatershop.com/30k_natural_gas_vent_free_radiant_heater.html

Sorry CubsFan - don't mean to hijack your thread. I'm just in the same boat as you - needing to find a good way to heat things up once I'm setup and going.

[Vic]

Thanks for the Northern Tool link - once I got looking I found this one: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200307959_200307959 I like the looks of that - it should work good in my shop, no matter what I decide to do inside.

I do wonder about one like this as well: http://www.heatershop.com/30k_natural_gas_vent_free_radiant_heater.html

Sorry CubsFan - don't mean to hijack your thread. I'm just in the same boat as you - needing to find a good way to heat things up once I'm setup and going.

Because this is a "ventless" gas fired heater, I cannot recommend it. I don't buy the whole idea of "acceptable levels" of carbon monoxide.

[CubsFan]

Thanks for all the help everyone.

I'm starting to lean pretty heavily toward electric now. I think I'd prefer natural gas, but unfortunately I'd have to pay a plumber to run a gas line a very long way. Propane doesn't seem like a bad choice, but I don't really like the idea of having to make sure I have consumables on hand, which leaves electric.

I was thinking either one of the larger ones like Rutabagared recommended, or perhaps a pair of smaller ones, such as: http://www.amazon.com/Dimplex-DGWH4031-4000-Watt-Garage-Workshop/dp/B00064NURU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1284126524&sr=8-2

I figure the downside to 2 is that I probably have to have a separate circuit for each, but I do like that I can space them out to get a bit more even coverage.

So I'll also need to do some insulating of my garage. Anyone have an opinion on what's the most economical way to do that? I'd like to spend as little money as possible (which, I realize, won't get me the best insulation), but won't really want to just throw it away either. I figure I'll get one of the kits for the garage door, and I can probably get to 60-80% of the outside walls so I'll put something in there.

Thanks for all the help!

[Vic]

Thanks for all the help everyone.

I'm starting to lean pretty heavily toward electric now. I think I'd prefer natural gas, but unfortunately I'd have to pay a plumber to run a gas line a very long way. Propane doesn't seem like a bad choice, but I don't really like the idea of having to make sure I have consumables on hand, which leaves electric.

I was thinking either one of the larger ones like Rutabagared recommended, or perhaps a pair of smaller ones, such as: http://www.amazon.com/Dimplex-DGWH4031-4000-Watt-Garage-Workshop/dp/B00064NURU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1284126524&sr=8-2

I figure the downside to 2 is that I probably have to have a separate circuit for each, but I do like that I can space them out to get a bit more even coverage.

So I'll also need to do some insulating of my garage. Anyone have an opinion on what's the most economical way to do that? I'd like to spend as little money as possible (which, I realize, won't get me the best insulation), but won't really want to just throw it away either. I figure I'll get one of the kits for the garage door, and I can probably get to 60-80% of the outside walls so I'll put something in there.

Thanks for all the help!

The cheapest way to go is straight fiberglass batt insulation, which will work if you do a great job of air sealing and installation of the batts. These two points are critical for fiberglass insulation to work correctly. Air moves very freely through the material. Also a 5% defect in installation equals approximately a 30% reduction in the R value for that cavity.

The best value for function and cost is "damp" blown in cellulose. This type of application has a binder that will prevent future air gaps at the top of the cavity. Air does not move freely through it. The down sides are that you have to have someone else usually do the installation and you will need to wait a day or two before you can sheetrock. Also, if you live in a high humidity area extreme attention is required in regard to the vapor barrier to prevent the cellulose becoming damp and a breeding ground for mold.

A really good alternative is to have a 1 inch layer of polyurethane (closed cell) foam blown into the cavity and follow with batt insulation. The foam will provide a very positive air seal and also adds a decent amount of structural integrity.

With any method you choose, be sure to pay attention to the details. Small errors in air sealing and installation have huge impacts on performance. Buy some cans of spray in foam to fill the large gaps (back with plywood, foam board, etc for larger gaps then foam), an elastomeric caulk for smaller gaps and seams. Go as far as even sealing the electrical knockout (used and unused) in your electrical boxes.

When in doubt consult an energy efficiency representative from your local utility. Unfortunately, many of the regular trades building homes know little about building science. There are a minority who excel and are building houses that will perform well into the future, but they are the minority.

Good luck,

Vic

[Karl Bauer]

Thanks for the Northern Tool link - once I got looking I found this one: http://www.northernt...07959_200307959 I like the looks of that - it should work good in my shop, no matter what I decide to do inside.

I do wonder about one like this as well: http://www.heatersho...ant_heater.html

Sorry CubsFan - don't mean to hijack your thread. I'm just in the same boat as you - needing to find a good way to heat things up once I'm setup and going.

Because this is a "ventless" gas fired heater, I cannot recommend it. I don't buy the whole idea of "acceptable levels" of carbon monoxide.

Vic may not like this heater but it is what I have used in my shop for three years now. But there are some caveats. My shop is a detached 2+ car garage that was built in the 70's. These heaters are not for use in "tight" construction which my shop is not. If you are going to seal up your shop tight with caulking and weatherstripping DO NOT USE ONE OF THESE! Even though it is equipped with an oxygen depletion sensor it is better to be safe.

[Rutabagared]

CubsFan,

I agree with Vic, Fiberglass batt is the cheapest way to go. I built a 24 x 22 shop last fall and the total cost of installation was about $350 (helped by a nice sale at the big box store). This included R19 in the walls and two layers in the ceiling - a layer of unfaced R30 on top of and perpendicular to the ceiling joists and layer of faced R13 in the joist bays.

You'll save some dough by installing it yourself. Many make a big deal about irritation, etc., but I had no issues. Get a good respirator, gloves and goggles and have at it.

Some things I learned from my experience:

Use scissors to cut the paper facing. Razors dull too quickly and just mangle it. It was quicker, neater, and easier to just cut the paper with scissors and then cut the remaining fiberglass batting with a razor blade

Also, ensure you completely fill the cavities and avoid compressing the insulation when dealing with obstructions such as receptacle boxes and cable. To insulate around cable, separate (tear) the batt one half the thickness beginning at the end to about 6” – 8” beyond the length necessary to clear the cable. Then thread the rear portion of the batt behind the cable, ensuring that you fill the cavity. The front portion can then be placed over the front of the cable. In effect you're capturing the cable within the insulation rather than compressing it. The same principle applies to electrical boxes. Don’t compress the insulation around them. Instead, carefully remove the insulation and facing required. I found this very easy to do with ordinary household scissors. I simply cut away the facing and the batting about ½ the thickness of the batt and placed the insulation around the box. This makes it easy to ensure that there is insulation behind the electrical box. Good luck!

Joe

[Eric Martin]

I have an outside boiler system I installed for the house. I ran another set of water lines to the shop ( 2 1/2 car unattached garage 1200 sqft). I built a plywood box that sits on the floor and cut out one side to fit an air filter. Then I bought a water to air heat exchanger and an air handler and set it on top the filter box to move the air. Voila heat! I cut in 4 heat drops in the ceiling and ran flex ducts to them but I have yet to build the plenum to hook them up. This has been on my list of good intensions for 3 years now. So for now the heat just blows straight up through the heat exchanger in to the shop. This heats great just like this. I can heat my shop as warm as I want. I usually work in shorts all winter long. I just walk fast from the house to the shop when it is below zero outside. The down side to this type of heat is I spend lots of time in the fall cutting copious amounts of firewood when I could be working in the shop.

I read the other day about a guy who just turns his window air conditioners around backwards and uses them to heat in the winter. I don't know how well it really works but he said he has done it for 20 years. I got a kick out of that.

[Vic]

I read the other day about a guy who just turns his window air conditioners around backwards and uses them to heat in the winter. I don't know how well it really works but he said he has done it for 20 years. I got a kick out of that.

LOL! The weird things I see people do, spending a fortune to save a buck. I'll have to spread this one around the department. Thanks!! LOL!

[jab73180]

Because this is a "ventless" gas fired heater, I cannot recommend it. I don't buy the whole idea of "acceptable levels" of carbon monoxide.

they release to much moisture in the air anyway. not good for cast iron tops.

[Eric Martin]

LOL! The weird things I see people do, spending a fortune to save a buck. I'll have to spread this one around the department. Thanks!! LOL!

I am not sure if people come up with these type of ideas to feel like they are saving money or just to show people how ingenues they are.

Maybe we should start a forum just for stupidly smart ideas like this. HA

[sdkidaho]

Because this is a "ventless" gas fired heater, I cannot recommend it. I don't buy the whole idea of "acceptable levels" of carbon monoxide.

I'd have to agree on the ventless - that's why I was leaning towards the other model that is vented.

they release to much moisture in the air anyway. not good for cast iron tops.

I'm not sure how much of a factor that is for me. Here in Idaho it isn't really a humid place. We're pretty dry, even in the winter it's a dry type of cold. Or does that even matter?

[CubsFan]

Ok, here's my current plan:

R13 in the walls (Looks like that'll be about $80) covered by drywall

Not sure what I have in the attic now, but I'm going to add a layer of R30 to whatever it is

Add a large electric heater

Seems like this should be enough to keep the shop at T-shirt temp for most of the time. Northern Colorado doesn't usually really get all that cold, but on the days it does drop really low I probably won't be able to work in the shop. That's probably just fine if it's a few days a year.

So, I've never done insulation before. Can someone explain the vapor barrier to me? I understand the purpose, just not sure where it goes or what material it means for a garage installation.

Also, I'm thinking my choices for heater are something like:

One 4000W heater

Two 4000W heater

one 5000W heater

Any thoughts on that? I like the idea of a couple of them on opposite sides of the shop, but I'm guessing I'd need to have 2 separate circuits to do that? And a 5000W heater would only require one extra circuit.

Thanks!