..Kev Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I was given a set of Starrett setup blocks, by a dear friend who got to the point that he couldn't work anymore, along with all sorts of other high end machinist stuff. some good number of years back. I've never used them. Very nice gift indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 The very nature of a setup block makes it a rough setup tool... You are comparing the setup block to a blade or bit by eyesight/touch to set it. It will be close, but in reality it probably won't be exact.... Nor does it necessarily have to be... I can't ever remember using a setup block and then just leaving it alone, I always have to tweak things as I test fit the parts. It's a good starting point for me, but numerical values and measurements mean nothing, only the physical (relative) dimension that is left is what I care about. This works just as well with a 60 cent bar as it does a $6 bar. Just my opinion and the way that I use these tools. Your mileage may vary. That was why I made a point about working to numbers or not. In building stamping dies my boss has talked about two ways of doing it that were used in the 60's. One was by relative measurements and the other was based on precision measurements and working to exact numbers. Woodworking has traditionaly been much more of a relative measurement system as many techniques predate precision measurement capabilities. It isn't about one being better than another, but about how you work and what is good enough for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I have never worked to "relative dimensioning" never have never will. Even at that very close precision in not needed in a wood shop. Once you know how to set up machines it not hard to get very close with average every day measuring devices. Guys that work with hand tools seem to prefer the relative dimensioning and I can see that but neither requires extreme precision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trz Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 What is relative dimensioning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 What is relative dimensioning.A term that generally using one pert as a 'gague block' to set up your tools when making the mating part. ParticalBoard's world of expensive (in my eyes) cabinet making machines apparently includes accurate and reliable scales on the machines. My hobby stuff does not, so rather than trust my aging eyesight to transfer a measurement from part to ruler to machine, I skip the ruler and set my machine to match the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 It means taking your measurements from the piece you're working on rather than a plan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Measuring is the enemy of accuracy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 A term that generally using one pert as a 'gague block' to set up your tools when making the mating part. ParticalBoard's world of expensive (in my eyes) cabinet making machines apparently includes accurate and reliable scales on the machines. My hobby stuff does not, so rather than trust my aging eyesight to transfer a measurement from part to ruler to machine, I skip the ruler and set my machine to match the part. No, TIODS hit it on the head. It has nothing to do with machine scales. FWIW you can spend a load of money on an expensive machine and the scales suck just as bad as the lesser expensive machines. Scales are only a general guide to get you semi close at a glance unless your using very accurate DRO's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 No, TIODS hit it on the head. It has nothing to do with machine scales. FWIW you can spend a load of money on an expensive machine and the scales suck just as bad as the lesser expensive machines. Scales are only a general guide to get you semi close at a glance unless your using very accurate DRO's. Glad to hear I'm not missing out there, at least! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuilderBill Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The problem I have with Woodpeckers and other similar manufacturers is that they don't publish the specs and tolerances they manufacture to. They don't sell to governments or industry where such specs and tolerances are required.There are well established gradings for measuring tools, you never see them mentioned on their sites. They anodize their aluminum tools(anodization has its own variances) and aluminum expands and contracts with temperature much more than tool steel. They market to hobbyists where the requirements are less stringent and most likely don't know the difference. I have a cheap set of Harbor Freight tool steel parallels that measure out on my Mitutoyo and Starrett calipers within .0005" in an inch of width in 20 pieces . That's 1/2 of 1/1000 of an inch, not bad for $39.95. My set of Whiteside brass gauges vary up to .005" in a 5-piece set for about the same cost. Go get yourself a set of feeler gauges at the local auto-parts store, if you can't feel the .0015 gauge with your finger while running across it on a flat surface you have health problems and need to see your doctor. And woodworking is all about the feel, right? I can't see a joint that's a thou out but I sure can feel it. So let's go over to Amazon and see what we can pick up: Starrett has an adjustable parallell set that covers 3/8"- 1-5/16" for $140, you can get the Mitutoya digital caliper that reads 0-8" (or the equivalent in Metric) within .001" for $182. So that's the same cost as the Woodpeckers full-boat set with guaranteed specs thrown in and you can measure down to the point where it's hard to feel with repeatable results. make your own decision And to Fretless Llama, if you can't measure it how do you know it's accurate? Best, Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 They market to hobbyists where the requirements are less stringent and most likely don't know the difference. They market to woodworkers that don't need the techno bable. Its completely unnecessary for a hobbyist or professional woodworker to be so exacting. if you can't feel the .0015 gauge with your finger while running across it on a flat surface you have health problems and need to see your doctor. Or more likely you don't have lady hands and have calluses from actually woodworking. So let's go over to Amazon and see what we can pick up: Starrett has an adjustable parallell set that covers 3/8"- 1-5/16" for $140, you can get the Mitutoya digital caliper that reads 0-8" (or the equivalent in Metric) within .001" for $182. So that's the same cost as the Woodpeckers full-boat set with guaranteed specs thrown in and you can measure down to the point where it's hard to feel with repeatable results. Or you can buy $25 worth of inexpensive tools and Lowes or the like and have all you need for woodworking. Below are all the measuring tools any woodworker using machines needs to purchase to make accurate measurements. The pencil does not have to be pink but the yellow ruler is good if your eyes are not all that great. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The problem I have with Woodpeckers and other similar manufacturers is that they don't publish the specs and tolerances they manufacture to. They don't sell to governments or industry where such specs and tolerances are required.There are well established gradings for measuring tools, you never see them mentioned on their sites. They anodize their aluminum tools(anodization has its own variances) and aluminum expands and contracts with temperature much more than tool steel. They market to hobbyists where the requirements are less stringent and most likely don't know the difference. I have a cheap set of Harbor Freight tool steel parallels that measure out on my Mitutoyo and Starrett calipers within .0005" in an inch of width in 20 pieces . That's 1/2 of 1/1000 of an inch, not bad for $39.95. My set of Whiteside brass gauges vary up to .005" in a 5-piece set for about the same cost. Go get yourself a set of feeler gauges at the local auto-parts store, if you can't feel the .0015 gauge with your finger while running across it on a flat surface you have health problems and need to see your doctor. And woodworking is all about the feel, right? I can't see a joint that's a thou out but I sure can feel it. So let's go over to Amazon and see what we can pick up: Starrett has an adjustable parallell set that covers 3/8"- 1-5/16" for $140, you can get the Mitutoya digital caliper that reads 0-8" (or the equivalent in Metric) within .001" for $182. So that's the same cost as the Woodpeckers full-boat set with guaranteed specs thrown in and you can measure down to the point where it's hard to feel with repeatable results. make your own decision And to Fretless Llama, if you can't measure it how do you know it's accurate? Best, Bill For these they did site an accuracy of less than +-.001". And people need to learn accuracy vs precision. It might be precise and that is good enough for you but be off by .020". But if both parts are off by the same amount by being .520" instead of 1/2" that is an inaccurate but precise method. Relative dimensions is about precision not accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I am definitely out on this one. I'm really trying but don't see the value Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collinb Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Why not eliminate the guess work and imprecision of eyeballing or feeling things. 1. For height: http://www.amazon.com/Double-HEIGHT-Digital-Digit-Counter/dp/B00FY3A2CE 2. For width & depth: http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-01407A-Extra-Large-SAE-Metric-Conversion/dp/B000GSLKIW/ and/or http://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-long-reach-digital-caliper-60248.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Why not eliminate the guess work and imprecision of eyeballing or feeling things. 1. For height: http://www.amazon.com/Double-HEIGHT-Digital-Digit-Counter/dp/B00FY3A2CE 2. For width & depth: http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-01407A-Extra-Large-SAE-Metric-Conversion/dp/B000GSLKIW/ and/or http://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-long-reach-digital-caliper-60248.html Although I think a height gauge is handy especially if your going blind, that is to much money to spend in a wood shop. Grizzly has one for $30 that is more than any wood shop needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collinb Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Although I think a height gauge is handy especially if your going blind, that is to much money to spend in a wood shop. Grizzly has one for $30 that is more than any wood shop needs. I forgot .... this is the one I use for height. Not quite as versatile, but does the job on multiple tools. And it's cheap. http://www.amazon.com/iGAGING-DIGITAL-MULTI-GAUGE-WOODWORKERS-WELDERS/dp/B0032OG42O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 I like to use stacks of pre-dimensioned wood blocks. Woodworker's equivalent to a machinist's parallel set, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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