Slippery slope

[chrisphr]

Only $1400? You're doing it wrong.

I've had a fair amount of Jet tools, I find them to be well made

$1400 is the grizzly.  Looks like about $2000 for Jet.

[estesbubba]

@Eric. do you want to expand on what problems you're having with your Griz jointer? I've heard people say there are common problems with the parallelogram 8" and wondering what they are? I have the G0586 8" dovetail jointer (now discontinued) and so far have been very happy with it. I did have to shim the outfeed table down a hair when I got it but just changing knives since.  

[Eric.]

The design of their parallelogram tables is great in theory but terrible in execution.  The concentric bushings they use are as close to worthless as they can be without being completely worthless.  When I installed my Byrd head I spent an entire day pulling my hair out...and ultimately still couldn't get it perfect.  It was good enough to flatten a board to within "reasonable" flatness...but I want perfect...because there's no reason not to HAVE perfect if a machine is made right.

My current issues have something to do with bearings...I'm fairly certain within the motor.  After about 12 hours of monkeying around with adjustments and troubleshooting, I put my foot down, cleaned it up, rolled it to the front of the shop, and it is now waiting for pictures and craigslist.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there with better knowledge of machines and the patience and willingness to fix them...probably fairly easily.  I'm not one of those people.  I'm a woodworker, not a mechanic, and I don't wanna waste my precious shop time working on crap machines.  I'm done with that jointer.

[Trip]

==>I'm a woodworker, not a mechanic, and I don't wanna waste my precious shop time working on crap machines.

You ain't lying...

 

==>After about 12 hours of monkeying around with adjustments and troubleshooting, I put my foot down

I know you know this, but for those that follow: No matter how much you spend, all stationary gear needs DIY at some point... Belts/bearings/etc are just the price of ownership... Some level of hands-on is needed -- maybe not for a couple of years, but it's waiting in the weeds... An important point though, purchasing better gear tends to make those tasks a lot easier. For example, on high-quality jointers and planers, the bearing blocks are pillar-mounted with alignment pins -- so there is no need to realign the bearings/shaft/cutterhead to the frame -- just press the bearings and it all slides home as one unit... No shims, no engineers squares, no nothing -- it simply slides on the pillar mount and the tapered pins seat everything in correct aliment -- you're done... Now you pay for this up-front (the parts need to be precision machined and the fit/finish has to be there to make this work), but it's kind of nice when you are struggling with a heavy cutterhead not to have to worry about alignment... At that point you just want the darn thing back together so you can finish your project and not worrying about finding some shim stock... That's the point, higher-end gear recognizes time is money, frustration or both...

[Eric.]

Yeah if a belt needs to be replaced or a cutterhead bearing goes bad...that's a bummer but something that I can tackle after I throw a wrench through some drywall.

But I'm pretty sure I have a motor bearing issue.  That's where the noise is coming from and rebuilding the motor is beyond my limited knowledge and well beyond my willingness to tackle.  And replacing the whole motor...well, at that point, I'm gonna upgrade anyway.  We live in a disposable society and I'm no better than anyone else.

 

What blows my mind is that I can find exactly ZERO businesses/people/smart monkeys who offer services on woodworking machines.  I gargled everywhere, called everyone I could think of in St. Louis who might know a name...nothing.  I cannot be the first guy in the history of woodworking who is too lazy and impatient to fix a machine himself.  I can't believe there's not a single person in St. Louis who I could pay to do it for me.

[bgreenb]

 

What blows my mind is that I can find exactly ZERO businesses/people/smart monkeys who offer services on woodworking machines.  I gargled everywhere, called everyone I could think of in St. Louis who might know a name...nothing.  I cannot be the first guy in the history of woodworking who is too lazy and impatient to fix a machine himself.  I can't believe there not a single person in St. Louis who I couldn't pay to do it for me.

Yup, this is what surprised me the most - and even more than that, the fact that you called Grizzly and they had nothing to offer but a shrug.  I would think they'd have names and numbers of service technicians.  

[Trip]

==>I can find exactly ZERO businesses/people/smart monkeys who offer services on woodworking machines

I started noticing this some time ago... Our local machine closed some years ago and so did many of the local parts suppliers... We still have one farm supplier in town, so I can get some welding done in a pinch -- but all that is slowly coming to an end... As a result, I started taking adult education courses at the local community college... Small engine repair, basic welding, etc... It's more of a defense strategy -- As much as I like learning new things, it's more important for me to be self sufficient before it becomes impossible to get anything done...

I agree that it's a disposable society, and I'm a guilty as the next guy... But as your spend on machines increases, so does the size, weight, etc. The ability to just toss and replace diminishes --- hard to find a CL buyer for a 1750lb jointer, et al.  On the other hand, the nice thing about quality stationary machines is they break a lot less often, they have much higher quality parts (that last a lot longer) and they tend to be a lot easier to repair... For example, the bearings will be German, Swiss or Swedish, rated to 7500RPM and last years longer than their Chinese counterparts... Yea, they cost more, but my time is worth money and want to minimize downtime... There are some exceptions -- the pneumatic oscillation systems on stationary sanders are maintenance intensive, but that just comes with the territory. Except for the wide-belt, none of my machines have gone down for other than planned maintenance...

 

BTW: I know you've already moved beyond the Grizzly jointer, so for the next guy that comes along -- replacing bearings in a motor is pretty straight forward... But you do need some smaller bearing splitters/pullers...

[Beechwood Chip]

When I need something fixed I drive out to farming country.  They have people who will fix assorted farming equipment, and take a stab at any other machine repair jobs I might have, for a very reasonable price.  But, it's a two hour drive each way.

[Eric.]

 

BTW: I know you've already moved beyond the Grizzly jointer, so for the next guy that comes along -- replacing bearings in a motor is pretty straight forward... But you do need some smaller bearing splitters/pullers...

I'll give the new owner your email address so you can walk him through it. 

When I need something fixed I drive out to farming country.  They have people who will fix assorted farming equipment, and take a stab at any other machine repair jobs I might have, for a very reasonable price.  But, it's a two hour drive each way.

If it wasn't a jointer I might load it up in the truck and head out of the city.  But it's way too heavy for that, and I no longer have my trailer, so this thing ain't goin' nowhere except to someone else's shop.

[Trip]

==>I'll give the new owner your email address so you can walk him through it. 

Oh thanks...

[Cliff]

The design of their parallelogram tables is great in theory but terrible in execution.  The concentric bushings they use are as close to worthless as they can be without being completely worthless.  When I installed my Byrd head I spent an entire day pulling my hair out...and ultimately still couldn't get it perfect.  It was good enough to flatten a board to within "reasonable" flatness...but I want perfect...because there's no reason not to HAVE perfect if a machine is made right.

My current issues have something to do with bearings...I'm fairly certain within the motor.  After about 12 hours of monkeying around with adjustments and troubleshooting, I put my foot down, cleaned it up, rolled it to the front of the shop, and it is now waiting for pictures and craigslist.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there with better knowledge of machines and the patience and willingness to fix them...probably fairly easily.  I'm not one of those people.  I'm a woodworker, not a mechanic, and I don't wanna waste my precious shop time working on crap machines.  I'm done with that jointer.

Sadly you have mostly scared me. I am relatively close to St. Louis. 4-5 hours I think. But I don't know jack about working on those machines. I'd be lost.

[Cliff]

Sadly you have mostly scared me. I am relatively close to St. Louis. 4-5 hours I think. But I don't know jack about working on those machines. I'd be lost.

Although.. I gotta say.. my stepdad builds farm equipment  and such. Chances are good that he and I can repair about anything. 

[Eric.]

I'll give you special WTO friend price if you think you guys can fix it.  I was gonna list it for $600 FIRM.  But for you, call it five.  Bring a trailer.

[Cliff]

I'll give you special WTO friend price if you think you guys can fix it.  I was gonna list it for $600 FIRM.  But for you, call it five.  Bring a trailer.

When you say it isn't perfectly flat, how far out are we talking? Any more you can expand on the problem or bushings so I can research, I'd appreciate it. I'll have to talk with my handlers (Wife, stepdad) to see which is mostly likely to punch me in the face for mentioning this. I think it's unlikely but I will try my best. Cause I complain a ton about how  I can't get stuff square. I got 4 laminated 7 foot boards right now and I absolutely cannot square them without a jointer or a table saw jig. And I hate to build jigs. I was actually going to ask a guy tonight if I can have him square them up for me, but he's touchy about his equip.

Oh - and is this the G0490 jointer? With the 76+ inch bed?

Edited October 9, 2015 by Cliff

[Eric.]

Check out my mahogany nightstands and my tool cabinet...I built both of those projects since the last calibration.   The tables could have moved recently though since I've been messing with it and moving it around...but you can get it back to very close...just takes some tinkering.

Like I said...it's within the acceptable range unless you're a psycho OCD type.  I could get a 2 thou feeler gauge under the straight edge on infeed table on the fence side...and there was simply NO getting any closer.  Most people would laugh at 2 thou.  I see no reason it shouldn't be dead nuts flat since it would only require proper engineering and manufacturing.

Talk to your stepdad, get his opinion.  Whatever is wrong with it is certainly repairable by someone who messes with machines.  Keep in mind...I paid $400 for that Byrd head less than a year ago.  It's basically brand new...haven't even turned the inserts yet.  So worst case scenario...you buy a new Byrd head and get the jointer for a hundred bucks.  And that's the last sales pitch I'm throwing because I don't wanna talk you into something you'll regret.

[Cliff]

Let me ask you this.. As someone that has done panels, no doubt - can you joint 2 edges at 2 thous out of square and then glue  them and it will be pretty damn close? For a normal person, lets say  

I mean, i'm on board either way. I just gotta convince my wife. Just trying to figure out if its usable for me until i can figure out how to fix it. I don't really have the skills yet to take something 2 thous out of square and fix it with a hand plane. I tend to make things very bad when I touch a plane. It makes me sad.

Your nightstands and tool cabinet are insanely awesome.

 

[Vyrolan]

What blows my mind is that I can find exactly ZERO businesses/people/smart monkeys who offer services on woodworking machines.  I gargled everywhere, called everyone I could think of in St. Louis who might know a name...nothing.  I cannot be the first guy in the history of woodworking who is too lazy and impatient to fix a machine himself.  I can't believe there's not a single person in St. Louis who I could pay to do it for me.

There's no money in it.  Disposable society like you say...so people won't pay for repairs.  I mean anyone who was gonna fix it is going to take some minimal number of hours to diagnose...then maybe has to source parts, do the repair.  They'd have to be equipped to handle, manage, and move these huge machines.  So they'd quote you 300-400 bucks and you'd be like and you'd be like I could NOT spend 400 plus sell it 600 and be 1000 closer to a better model. 

[-MattK-]

I tend to make things very bad when I touch a plane. It makes me sad.

I just started on The Hand Tool School's curriculum this week - I'm totally with you on sadness induced by planes.

Lots of curly shavings that I can use as kindling in the fire, though!

[Eric.]

Let me ask you this.. As someone that has done panels, no doubt - can you joint 2 edges at 2 thous out of square and then glue  them and it will be pretty damn close? For a normal person, lets say

 

Yes.  As long as you use proper technique, it is more than capable of making fine joints...I've been jointing all my boards with this jointer for five years.  I do usually take a hand plane to the edges before glue up, but that's just to knock off the ridges left by the knives, not to correct an out-of-square edge.  And this isn't a necessary step...just something the OCD woodworker will do because he can.

Forget the permission from your wife...what I require from you is confidence that your stepdad can fix it.  What I don't wanna get into is you buying this thing and finding out the repairs are beyond his ability.  They're fairly simple machines, but it still requires a certain amount of knowledge...not saying he doesn't have it...but let's make sure first.

There's no money in it.  Disposable society like you say...so people won't pay for repairs.  I mean anyone who was gonna fix it is going to take some minimal number of hours to diagnose...then maybe has to source parts, do the repair.  They'd have to be equipped to handle, manage, and move these huge machines.  So they'd quote you 300-400 bucks and you'd be like and you'd be like I could NOT spend 400 plus sell it 600 and be 1000 closer to a better model. 

Very true.  I did find a local business that repairs industrial woodworking equipment.  I tried calling but I got no answer and didn't leave a message.  I figured that either the bill wouldn't be big enough to be worth his time, or too big to be worth the cost to me.

 

[Cliff]

 

Yes.  As long as you use proper technique, it is more than capable of making fine joints...I've been jointing all my boards with this jointer for five years.  I do usually take a hand plane to the edges before glue up, but that's just to knock off the ridges left by the knives, not to correct an out-of-square edge.  And this isn't a necessary step...just something the OCD woodworker will do because he can.

Forget the permission from your wife...what I require from you is confidence that your stepdad can fix it.  What I don't wanna get into is you buying this thing and finding out the repairs are beyond his ability.  They're fairly simple machines, but it still requires a certain amount of knowledge...not saying he doesn't have it...but let's make sure first.

Very true.  I did find a local business that repairs industrial woodworking equipment.  I tried calling but I got no answer and didn't leave a message.  I figured that either the bill wouldn't be big enough to be worth his time, or too big to be worth the cost to me.

 

Haha, well I got breakfast with him in the morning. Will see what he has to say. He's also the guy with the truck, so he'd have to drive me down. I'll tell him something about bearings and bushings or was it bushels and bears? See what he has to say. The stuff he rebuilds every day blows my mind. And he tells me about them like I have the slightest clue what a "40 foot spreader" is. I know he's fixing and building $300,000 machines and the guy pays him like $10/hr.