socoj2 Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I bet its a $600 dowel Jig. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 3 hours ago, Llama said: I'd still like to see what they are doing that is different. There are very nice CNC machines at every level of price. I am going to guess this one will be in the 5-8K range for a medium sized machine. For that money, I expect some serious upgrades over the Rockler unit. I haven't priced CNCs but I bet the come in lower in price, more like the $2k-$4k range. I think they would want something priced similarly to their other marquee machines (PM2000, PM1500/PM1800, their new drum sander, etc). Yes, PM has plenty of machines in the $5K+ category, but those are mostly marketed to the professional/light duty commercial market. Their marketing for this CNC feels more.... maker/high end hobby/craftspersonish, if that makes sense. The market for a $8k CNC is fairly limited, the market for a high quality $3K CNC is obviously much larger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 37 minutes ago, Mike. said: I haven't priced CNCs but I bet the come in lower in price, more like the $2k-$4k range. I think they would want something priced similarly to their other marquee machines (PM2000, PM1500/PM1800, their new drum sander, etc). Yes, PM has plenty of machines in the $5K+ category, but those are mostly marketed to the professional/light duty commercial market. Their marketing for this CNC feels more.... maker/high end hobby/craftspersonish, if that makes sense. The market for a $8k CNC is fairly limited, the market for a high quality $3K CNC is obviously much larger. In looking closely at the photos of the new PM and the Axiom CNC sold by Rockler - they look like the same machine with cosmetic differences. The separation between the linear guide rails and drive screw on the gantry, the spindle and spindle mount/Z axis assembly, the bed - it all looks the same. The Axiom sells for $5K to $6500 depending on the size. Axiom Powermatic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 @micks Interesting, makes sense. @Llama I stand corrected. I guess this thing will be $5k+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 32 minutes ago, Mike. said: @Llama I stand corrected. I guess this thing will be $5k+. We'll see when the actual price hits. If this thing is in the 3K range, and is better than what Rockler is currently selling I'll certainly be on the list to get one. @micks - You seem to be right about this. I hope for a different machine, not just gold paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 One thing that concerns me about the engineering, if this is the Axiom, is the center drive screw in the X axis. It probably is not a concern on a table as narrow as this, but on wider machines there have been issues with gantry binding when the spindle is close to one edge or the other making a relatively heavy cut. I really like the looks of the Fine Line Automation machine that @difalkner is building. The dual X axis drives combined with the tensioning system they use make for a better design, IMO. @Llama - It may or may not be the same machine. The same spindle housing may house heavier wiring (more Kw), they may use upgraded bearing cars, may have a superior controller and/or software, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I'm interested in seeing the price on this. I'm gonna guess $5499 on the price, in which case I'd be more likely to go with the CNC Shark HD3 Extended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I've deliberately held off buying a CNC for a few reasons, mainly because I had not seen any sub $5000 routers that I felt I could find a use for. The Fine Line Automation Saturn Series looks to me like a game changer - with NEMA 64 motors it rapids at 1200 ipm and can cut up to 500 ipm. With a 3hp water-cooled electro-spindle (as opposed to a hand held router motor) it's well under 5K delivered for a 2 x 4 work area. I haven't seen anyone else's router that comes close to that. The Axiom (PM also?) rapids at 200 ipm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassAct Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 On 7/13/2016 at 4:24 PM, Southwood said: One year membership to the Guild with any Powermatic purchase? I'd rather get a new Powermatic with a one-year Guild purchase. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 18 hours ago, micks said: I've deliberately held off buying a CNC for a few reasons, mainly because I had not seen any sub $5000 routers that I felt I could find a use for. The Fine Line Automation Saturn Series looks to me like a game changer - with NEMA 64 motors it rapids at 1200 ipm and can cut up to 500 ipm. With a 3hp water-cooled electro-spindle (as opposed to a hand held router motor) it's well under 5K delivered for a 2 x 4 work area. I haven't seen anyone else's router that comes close to that. The Axiom (PM also?) rapids at 200 ipm. Wow, the saturn looks like a beefy machine. Looks like the Saturn is just the structure, you need to add in the electronics, spindle, controllers, power supply, etc. Which I'm guessing would be another 3500 for the necessary components to get up and running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 3 hours ago, Tom Cancelleri said: Wow, the saturn looks like a beefy machine. Looks like the Saturn is just the structure, you need to add in the electronics, spindle, controllers, power supply, etc. Which I'm guessing would be another 3500 for the necessary components to get up and running. @difalkner said his was going to run about $4200 turnkey with a 3 hp water cooled spindle, electronics and controller. http://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/23141-cnc-router-build/?page=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
difalkner Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 18 hours ago, Tom Cancelleri said: Wow, the saturn looks like a beefy machine. Looks like the Saturn is just the structure, you need to add in the electronics, spindle, controllers, power supply, etc. Which I'm guessing would be another 3500 for the necessary components to get up and running. Nate told me that he can also offer the machine turnkey and ready to use. I just preferred to build the rest myself although it is taking longer - ugh! But it's a blast designing and building the rest! 15 hours ago, micks said: @difalkner said his was going to run about $4200 turnkey with a 3 hp water cooled spindle, electronics and controller. http://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/23141-cnc-router-build/?page=1 We're creeping up on about $4,400 because I've added a few things but it's still a tremendous value for the dollar. I don't think you'd find a more robust turnkey machine for anywhere near this cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 15 minutes ago, difalkner said: Nate told me that he can also offer the machine turnkey and ready to use. I just preferred to build the rest myself although it is taking longer - ugh! But it's a blast designing and building the rest! We're creeping up on about $4,400 because I've added a few things but it's still a tremendous value for the dollar. I don't think you'd find a more robust turnkey machine for anywhere near this cost. No kidding. Have you been happy with their service/support? Any thoughts on the controller they use? I'm going to have to give Nate a call - at least to get something in the planning stages. I stopped by Make Santa Fe (maker space) yesterday. They have what looks like a Techno Venture Plus 4 x 8 router. I'm going to sign up to use it for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
difalkner Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 1 minute ago, micks said: No kidding. Have you been happy with their service/support? Any thoughts on the controller they use? I'm going to have to give Nate a call - at least to get something in the planning stages. I stopped by Make Santa Fe (maker space) yesterday. They have what looks like a Techno Venture Plus 4 x 8 router. I'm going to sign up to use it for now. Given that the one we got is his prototype and all the headaches that come with that, plus moving his business location to a new and much larger facility, I think his service and support is good. I think it will get better as he completes this move and brings on additional help. The controller he uses now is from CNCRouterParts but I think he's planning on developing his own system, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineLineAutomation Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 The new machine is turnkey if you want it to be. We have electronics packages available. Right now, you can get a 2'x4' machine with a 28"x48" work area with the plug and play NEMA 23 electronics for under $4,600 shipped. In the next few weeks we'll have stands available for the machine. It's designed to easily handle the most demanding woodwork you can throw at it. What else would ya'll like to know? Nate Fine Line Automation www.finelineautomation.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, FineLineAutomation said: The new machine is turnkey if you want it to be. We have electronics packages available. Right now, you can get a 2'x4' machine with a 28"x48" work area with the plug and play NEMA 23 electronics for under $4,600 shipped. In the next few weeks we'll have stands available for the machine. It's designed to easily handle the most demanding woodwork you can throw at it. What else would ya'll like to know? Nate Fine Line Automation www.finelineautomation.com Nate, I appreciate the information. I spent some time on your website yesterday trying to figure it all out. I saw the machine, electronics, and searched around the site to try and find spindles but failed miserably. Do you have a link or anymore information regarding the spindle or other relative information. Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineLineAutomation Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 11 hours ago, Tom Cancelleri said: Nate, I appreciate the information. I spent some time on your website yesterday trying to figure it all out. I saw the machine, electronics, and searched around the site to try and find spindles but failed miserably. Do you have a link or anymore information regarding the spindle or other relative information. Much appreciated. Tom, Here is the entry from the FAQ: Selecting a router all depends on your application. The questions to ask yourself are: Are you planning on running the router 40 hours or more a week? Are you planning to take as big of a cut as you can possibly get? Something like cutting a 3/4" plywood in one pass with a compression bit? Are you going to be using the machine to generate a large portion of income? If so, will you be in a major bind if the machine goes down for a day or 2? If the answer to any of those questions are yes, you need to think seriously about using a spindle. We recommend an spindle that is at least 2.2KW. It can be 80mm, 100mm or a square body type spindle. We also recommend using an air cooled spindle over a water cooled spindle. The air cooled setup is significantly simpler and there is less chance of something breaking down. If you need help sourcing one of these, we can help you. If you don't want to spend the money on a spindle, at a minimum you want to run a larger 3HP router. We recommend the Porter Cable 7518 series router for this. The reason why we recommend these systems: we've had customers wear out a DeWalt router every 2 months on a production schedule like that. The general purpose routers were never designed for that type of workload and you will probably find yourself having to replace them at a rapid pace. If you do decide to use a router, we strongly recommend keeping a spare around just in case you need to replace it. If you answered no to the above questions, we generally recommend at least a 2 HP router to use with the machine. In the shop, we use the Hitachi M12VC. The Porter Cable 690 is another one we recommend. In reality, any of your name brands (Bosch, DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, etc.) will work well. We do have mounts for all of these routers. Please check with us if you can't find what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Good input, Nate. I agree about the air vs water cooling until you get above 24,000 rpm rotation speed. Much simpler and more reliable. One other factor to point out is the concentricity (lack of runout) of spindles vs router motors. If precise cut widths (i.e. overall dimensions) are important, spindles will deliver more precise parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineLineAutomation Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 11 minutes ago, micks said: Good input, Nate. I agree about the air vs water cooling until you get above 24,000 rpm rotation speed. Much simpler and more reliable. One other factor to point out is the concentricity (lack of runout) of spindles vs router motors. If precise cut widths (i.e. overall dimensions) are important, spindles will deliver more precise parts. Micks, That is true on regarding the runout on the routers. You can cut it in half by using a precision collet like those from PreciseBits. Those collets are worth the investment if you go with the router. If you are just doing woodwork you probably won't see the difference unless you are doing really fine inlays or carvings, given how much wood can expand or contract. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I met those guys recently. They do make some very nice tooling and they're nice guys, to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroDave Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I too was hoping for a different design rather than a a rebranding of what appears to be the Axiom. I've just about completed my CNCRouterParts 4x8 Pro unit. I was delayed a bit as I decided to update to their latest version with linear rails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineLineAutomation Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I too was hoping for a different design rather than a a rebranding of what appears to be the Axiom. I've just about completed my CNCRouterParts 4x8 Pro unit. I was delayed a bit as I decided to update to their latest version with linear rails. It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like your machine is running V-Groove bearings on the Z-Axis? How long did it take to put together? Nate Fine Line Automation www.finelineautomation.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroDave Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Good eye... The Z-Axis is now upgraded to a linear rail system. I just didn't have a pic yet... Total assembly time when I take into consideration all the interruptions (work, real life stuff) I would estimate I've put maybe 25-30 hours into it. I'm not in a hurry... I began this project back in April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Yep, it's official. 2 x 4 model with 2.2Kw (3hp) spindle, no software = $8500.00. Specs are the same as the Axiom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenskye Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, micks said: Yep, it's official. 2 x 4 model with 2.2Kw (3hp) spindle, no software = $8500.00. Specs are the same as the Axiom. I haven't done research on CNC setups, but that seems like a very high price tag for what appears to be a middle of the road setup. Then again I could be way off base or flat out wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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