rkearns10 Posted October 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, K Cooper said: That’s going to be a bugger! Will you not be using a backsplash? There will be a backsplash! Fortunately... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 Then, IMO, as long as the backsplash covers the irregularities between the counter top and the wall, I wouldn’t worry about it. Unless it causes you to loose sleep at night? Just concentrate on the miter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 If you have gaps bigger than your tile/whatever backsplash will cover then do a basic simple scribe with a jigsaw but don't try to make it a perfect fit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 Thanks guys I really appreciate it. Have any tips or resources for nailing the miter? Best to use a jig? Cut long and router it in to perfection? WdWerker: Regarding the two small triangle pieces, should those ideally be biscuited/dominoe'd and epoxy'd also with a bolt on each? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 20 hours ago, rkearns10 said: Have any tips or resources for nailing the miter? Best to use a jig? Cut long and router it in to perfection? I don't have a good track saw (or any track saw for that matter), just a circ saw & straight edge. The circ saw will not produce a glue ready edge, so I used the router to true it up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 Adding the triangles to each half should only need biscuits for alignment & epoxy. A couple clamps would be sufficient. Take a scrap of 2x6 or 2x8 and cut a triangle out of one side, use that to get the clamps on the little triangle. After the added triangles are dry cut the miter to final size. I would try to get a TiteJoint fastener or 2 in front and back of the sink hole location. Pulling the big miter joint closed wouldn't be easy even if you had big enough clamps , but the TiteJoint fasteners will pull the joint closed with plenty of pressure. Dry fit the joint and practice tightening it before you mix the epoxy ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, wdwerker said: Adding the triangles to each half should only need biscuits for alignment & epoxy. A couple clamps would be sufficient. Take a scrap of 2x6 or 2x8 and cut a triangle out of one side, use that to get the clamps on the little triangle. After the added triangles are dry cut the miter to final size. I would try to get a TiteJoint fastener or 2 in front and back of the sink hole location. Pulling the big miter joint closed wouldn't be easy even if you had big enough clamps , but the TiteJoint fasteners will pull the joint closed with plenty of pressure. Dry fit the joint and practice tightening it before you mix the epoxy ! Thanks man! In that previous linked example the gentleman screwed in some wood blocks in the sectioned area where the sink will be cut out, he then used them as a closer/more manageable way to get clamps on there and suck in the miter. I thought that was a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 If you decide to use the screwed on blocks in the sink area to clamp think about putting them on both sides for even pressure , top and bottom if possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 Wedwerker, As seen in that link from OldTownHome, to accommodate any realistically sized and functionally sized sink, would require a sink length that would eat into/eek over the tip of those small triangles up front. Do you see any problems there? I would still biscuit and epoxy both of them the entire way to ensure stability before I cut, but this would essentially leave a small lip in front of the sink to cover the gap. Would it make sense then, to get a miter bolt in each side of the small triangle? I know you said not needed, but I'm thinking about it now and that would only leave 1-2 miter bolts on the back joint, and two triangles up front with only epoxy and biscuits. Do you see any issues with that sink hole eating into those triangles? Sorry for the redundancy here, just wanna get this thing done right. Apologies for the delays but I'll definitely keep ya'll posted with progress, as you guys have been instrumental in helping a young guy out! Just takes forever to get all these thin waterlox coats on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 Triangles to the long tops just glue & biscuits if you want them for alignment. If there isn't room in front of the sink hole for Tite joint fasteners then use one back inside the sink hole area. It will give you clamping pressure during the glue up close to the front and once the epoxy has cured cuttings that away with the sink hole won't matter. Do not use miter joint bolts that you have to route a "Tee" shaped recess for. They can pop out if over tightened and the will do it at the most crucial moment. It's worth buying the jig to drill for the Tite Joint fasteners. Even if you use a Forstner bit instead of the cheap paddle bit that comes with the jig. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 You are the absolute man! Now that these babies have been waterloxed, and look good I must say.. It's time to get going on this miter and sink cutting. Stupid question, (bear in mind I'm learning here), but on the initial cuts for the miter, what would be a good plan of attack? Meaning: 1) How many degrees past 45 should I long cut the angle so as to have the "sweet spot for routing"? Maybe an 8th to a 1/4" from the tip of the true right angle (front facing) connection point? 2) I've been cutting the butcher with 60tooth, 3 passes form the top, with tape to cover the cut. Is this advised here as well? 3) To ensure a nice sharp angle, is it necessary to start/initiate the cut with say a jig saw, back it off after a half inch or an inch and bring the circular saw in? Or can I just go right into it with the circular saw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 No angle change at all. Just cut the first cut about 1/4" too long. Final cut in one pass with circular saw. Maybe you could cut it 1" too long then try a full cut pass as a test run before you cut the actual exact cut. I didn't pick up on you finishing the slabs before fabricating the corner Joint & cut out. Just be aware you will probably need to sand the exposed faces to get a perfectly smooth surface. All glue joint surfaces need to be unfinished so the epoxy can soak in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 24 minutes ago, wdwerker said: No angle change at all. Just cut the first cut about 1/4" too long. Final cut in one pass with circular saw. Maybe you could cut it 1" too long then try a full cut pass as a test run before you cut the actual exact cut. I didn't pick up on you finishing the slabs before fabricating the corner Joint & cut out. Just be aware you will probably need to sand the exposed faces to get a perfectly smooth surface. All glue joint surfaces need to be unfinished so the epoxy can soak in. Got it. Plane shift, not an angle shift. So you're saying set the saw depth for a one-and-done, for both the rough cut and the final cut? And the router is moreso to tighten up the face angle of the cut to be as flat as possible and flush with the opposing face angle? Gotcha re: the finish. I guess the only real worry there would be the topside of the counter for the sink junction, as the biscuit/epoxy areas for the face angle will be freshly cut and not sealed at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Rough cut can be multiple passes if needed. Final pass at a full cut but taking a 1/8" kerf and a 1/8"offcut (total the 1/4" I mentioned) should leave a cleaner cut. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 I cut to about +1/8" of the final dimension & brought it to final size with the router. The reason being that my circ saw doesn't leave a joint ready edge. The router leaves a perfect edge & the joint is absolutely tight. It does help to have a sacrificial backer piece so the edge doesn't get blown out on the exit side of the cut, particularly on the inside corner. No point to applying any finish until your completely done with glue up & sanding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 hours ago, drzaius said: I cut to about +1/8" of the final dimension & brought it to final size with the router. The reason being that my circ saw doesn't leave a joint ready edge. The router leaves a perfect edge & the joint is absolutely tight. It does help to have a sacrificial backer piece so the edge doesn't get blown out on the exit side of the cut, particularly on the inside corner. No point to applying any finish until your completely done with glue up & sanding. This seems like a safer play to me. I trust my cuts but this is not something I want to screw up and waste a shitload of time invested into these babies! haha. Thanks for clarifying that....I wasn't sure if a router could take that much vs getting 99.9% of the way there with the circular. I know it's totally backwards order of operations but these things are already completely stained and sealed. I was advised by a personal carpenter friend to do it all first, but now seeing it sort of should've waited for the end. Either way, what needs to be sanded, will be sanded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 I might have missed it, but one other key point about the benefits of going with a miter here is that with the original butt joint, that material at the back of the corner would have very little strength since it would be bending against the grain instead of along the grain direction. If someone drops a heavy pot or a turkey in that sink it could crack the counter along the grain lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 9 hours ago, rkearns10 said: I wasn't sure if a router could take that much vs getting 99.9% of the way there with the circular. I used my big Milwaukee router & it handled it easily, but you might want to go a little tighter, say 1/16" or less from the final dimension to make it a little easier on the router. 9 hours ago, rkearns10 said: I know it's totally backwards order of operations but these things are already completely stained and sealed. That's really too bad. Because it's been stained, you may end up having to sanding everything back to bare wood. It'll be very hard to blend the area around the joint with the rest. Don't be tempted to just glue it up & call it good without sanding the joint flat & smooth cause you'll hate yourself down the road. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just now, drzaius said: I used my big Milwaukee router & it handled it easily, but you might want to go a little tighter, say 1/16" or less from the final dimension to make it a little easier on the router. That's really too bad. Because it's been stained, you may end up having to sanding everything back to bare wood. It'll be very hard to blend the area around the joint with the rest. Don't be tempted to just glue it up & call it good without sanding the joint flat & smooth cause you'll hate yourself down the road. At least it is just a big flat surface. It is really not that hard to strip or sand down a big surface like that. Much more annoying if it includes all kinds of interior corners and crevices which are harder to clear out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Isaac said: At least it is just a big flat surface. It is really not that hard to strip or sand down a big surface like that. Much more annoying if it includes all kinds of interior corners and crevices which are harder to clear out. Ya, careful use of a belt sander would have it done in short order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, drzaius said: I used my big Milwaukee router & it handled it easily, but you might want to go a little tighter, say 1/16" or less from the final dimension to make it a little easier on the router. That's really too bad. Because it's been stained, you may end up having to sanding everything back to bare wood. It'll be very hard to blend the area around the joint with the rest. Don't be tempted to just glue it up & call it good without sanding the joint flat & smooth cause you'll hate yourself down the road. Wait...why would that even be an option? If the face cuts for the miter and triangles are unexposed, they can (and will be) be sanded to bare wood for the connection, but how would that affect the top part (visible) of the counters? I get the lip will need to be sanded just as much as anything else, but wouldn't some careful sanding here without going to the top of the butcher block prevent anything from visibly knocking down the top areas? Sanding everything down to bare wood really isn't an option for me at this point. I've already spent weeks curing these and putting Waterlox on them. That, and my first run with Waterlox I learned the hard way that many light coats with a cheesecloth was the way to go, had some pieces that were pooling and streaking, so I had to strip a few test pieces. This was a major PITA and both the sealant and stain didn't come out without really gouging the wood and taking a ton of time. I know, I know. Order of operations is ass backwards here and causing issues. I just went with a recommendation from a contractor friend of mine, at early onset, and never really had much experience to distinguish the bad move. I've come to learn over time that online forums are a MUCH better source of quick/intelligent feedback now. Live and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Or perhaps you're thinking of the sanding to the top of the joint, due to epoxy residue buildup bound to ooze upwards out of the joint and onto the flat top? Couldn't this be avoided if need be? Man this would really be quite possibly the worlds most major hassle if I had to sand these things all the way back down to bare wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 I bet using blue tape about 1/16 from the seam for final glue up will make epoxy cleanup easier. Just try to do the minimum sanding nessacary after glue up an be careful with the finish touch up. I wouldn't have pre finished the exposed faces before gluing the miter but that ship has sailed. Any time you sand through a stained & top coated finish it's tough to get the bare sections the same color but the transition where partly stained & finished needs to blend in is a real bear to make match. I would be real tempted to do the best I could during the glue up and keep joint sanding to a bare minimum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 On the positive side, the majority of this miter is going away, since it will be removed for the sink cutout, so just try to really nail the ends that will remain when all is said and done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkearns10 Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Thanks guys, really helpful. Learning a lot has it's prices! haha I suppose I'll just have to do my absolute best to keep the sanding dialed in, good idea with the tape. Also, as Isaac said, there's a small (ish) area to focus on in the end. Will keep some updates going for you guys. As you guys know, often these minor (assuming it doesn't look TOO bad) incongruences end up being neurotically noticeable only to the worker and his ego in time. But I sure do hope I can pull this off to a respectable fashion. Onward and upward. One last thing I've been thinking about and wanted to circle back on. For attaching the triangle pieces up front: 1) The eased edge of the overhang. Will this need to be accounted for with the triangles? Meaning will the front overhang on both large slabs (where the triangle will connect and be epoxy's) will have to be cut back an 1/8" or even routed? I'm not particularly familiar with this so want to get acquainted as much as I can. 2) Will each small triangle need to be epoxy'd and biscuited to one another, in addition to the large slabs? Or shall they just be perfectly fit and snug while biscuited and epoxy'd to their respective side of countertop slab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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