Seeking Opinions: Corner Sink Cutout and Butt-Joint on Butcher Block

[drzaius]

The point I was trying to make is that no matter how perfectly the cuts are made & how carefully you get the pieces lined up for gluing, there is still going to be a ridge at the joint. The 2 pieces are not going to be perfectly flat so every time you run your hand across the joint, you're gonna feel it. You just have to decide for yourself what you are willing to accept as far as product quality goes. If you're not going to sand it all back, then just concentrate on lining things up the best you can at the front triangle. Uncured epoxy cleans up well with xylene, but make sure your finish will stand up to that.

3 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

1) The eased edge of the overhang. Will this need to be accounted for with the triangles? Meaning will the front overhang on both large slabs (where the triangle will connect and be epoxy's) will have to be cut back an 1/8" or even routed? I'm not particularly familiar with this so want to get acquainted as much as I can.

You definitely need to cut that eased edge off. Just take the 1/8" or so off the front of both slabs, glue on the triangle pieces, then cut & glue the miters, then ease the front edges of the whole counter. Re-staining & finishing the front edge won't be a huge deal because the corner will hide the transition of old stain to new.

I don't think refinishing would be the huge deal you think it would. Sure, the 1st 2 times were a nightmare, but by now you're a pro  An hour or 2 to sand it all off, an hour to stain, & then 1/2 hour per coat of finish. I have not used Waterlox, but Arm-R-Seal is a wipe on poly that is dead simple to apply & 4 coats will give lots of protection. You can get a couple of coats on a day if drying conditions are good. I think 5 or 6 hours spent over 2 or 3 days would be well worth the effort, considering how long you'll be living with the counter top

[rkearns10]

28 minutes ago, drzaius said:

The point I was trying to make is that no matter how perfectly the cuts are made & how carefully you get the pieces lined up for gluing, there is still going to be a ridge at the joint. The 2 pieces are not going to be perfectly flat so every time you run your hand across the joint, you're gonna feel it. You just have to decide for yourself what you are willing to accept as far as product quality goes. If you're not going to sand it all back, then just concentrate on lining things up the best you can at the front triangle. Uncured epoxy cleans up well with xylene, but make sure your finish will stand up to that.

You definitely need to cut that eased edge off. Just take the 1/8" or so off the front of both slabs, glue on the triangle pieces, then cut & glue the miters, then ease the front edges of the whole counter. Re-staining & finishing the front edge won't be a huge deal because the corner will hide the transition of old stain to new.

I don't think refinishing would be the huge deal you think it would. Sure, the 1st 2 times were a nightmare, but by now you're a pro  An hour or 2 to sand it all off, an hour to stain, & then 1/2 hour per coat of finish. I have not used Waterlox, but Arm-R-Seal is a wipe on poly that is dead simple to apply & 4 coats will give lots of protection. You can get a couple of coats on a day if drying conditions are good. I think 5 or 6 hours spent over 2 or 3 days would be well worth the effort, considering how long you'll be living with the counter top

Roger that.  Wouldn't it be easier to:

1) Ease (via router?) the entire edge of the whole counter, before going for the small triangle piece? 

2) Cut the large miter joint for the whole counter and connect, and then add the small triangles last?

I suppose given I've already refinished these once, it wouldn't be as egregious a second time!   Only issue is, on my test piece with the orbital it took some digging action to get it back to bare wood, which sacriligeously left some burrs and gouges in the top, though assume a belt sander before hand (50 grit?) would be able to knock it down before the whole sanding schedule, without gouges.

Things is, waterlox is actually pretty time consuming and stinky as all hell. - VOC offgas for something like 6-7 days worth of very light coatings. Not exactly something I want to do again.

 

[Isaac]

Since you are discussing it, you might consider reviewing Marc (The Wood Whisperer) 's review of various wiping varnish options. He doesn't give a thumbs up/thumbs down rating, but discusses the pros and cons of each. Waterlox and Arm-R-Seal are two of the products he specifically reviews, so you might decide you'd prefer Arm-R-Seal anyways. Here is the link:

https://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/wiping-varnish-shootout/

It is a really good one. 

 

[drzaius]

2 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

1) Ease (via router?) the entire edge of the whole counter, before going for the small triangle piece? 

You don't want an eased edge where the triangle pieces attach cause then you'll have a groove in the surface.

2 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

2) Cut the large miter joint for the whole counter and connect, and then add the small triangles last?

By glueing on the triangles 1st you'll have an easier time making that miter joint look like 1 straight line. Adding them after is going to be all kinds of difficult & messy.

That video that @Isaac linked to is well worth watching.

[rkearns10]

57 minutes ago, drzaius said:

You don't want an eased edge where the triangle pieces attach cause then you'll have a groove in the surface.

By glueing on the triangles 1st you'll have an easier time making that miter joint look like 1 straight line. Adding them after is going to be all kinds of difficult & messy.

That video that @Isaac linked to is well worth watching.

Sorry I meant de-easing! I was just curious if it made sense to use the router or a jig, or combo of both to take off the 1/8" on the overhang

[drzaius]

18 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

Sorry I meant de-easing! I was just curious if it made sense to use the router or a jig, or combo of both to take off the 1/8" on the overhang

I would just run the slab through the table saw, taking just enough off to leave a square, sharp corner. That's the tool that I have that leaves the best edge on such a large piece. 

[rkearns10]

Am I totally missing something here though? Wouldn't it be possible to get juuuuust the right amount of epoxy in the joint to prevent excess overflow, plus the tape trick recommended by WoodWerkr, plus a quick-as-can-be wipe/scrape down of the excess when connecting the joint.... that would prevent the need for a ton of sanding to the top, and to keep necessary sanding to a few coats of the finish at most?

[drzaius]

Epoxy overflow is not the problem, that's easy enough to handle. The issue is going to be differences between the 2 surfaces you are joining. Neither is going to be perfectly flat and human fingers have a remarkable ability to detect surface changes. A .001" is like a mountain to your fingertips. When you glue 2 slabs together there will always be a difference between the 2, so you sand the joint smooth, then apply finish.

If the joint isn't sanded smooth & flat there will be a slight ridge that can be felt, but more importantly, the high side will wear quickly as objects are slid across it, exposing the bare wood in time.  Where flush surfaces need to be finished before assembly (as in prefab furniture), it's good to ease the edges so difference between the 2 pieces won't be as noticeable.

Here's an idea, since you are opposed to sanding & refinishing (and I understand why). Cut your miter, but leave both slabs just a little bit long, say 1/4". Then glue it up using the tape trick & extreme care in lining up the 2 sides. Then if the result is acceptable, then trim the other ends & your done. If not, then you can cut the miter apart & try again.

Oh, after the epoxy cures & you remove the tape, use a card scraper rather than sandpaper to take down the ridge of epoxy. That will give you far more control. You can hold the scraper at a bit of a curve so it won't tough the area beyond the joint.

I know this is a bit of a learning curve, but good luck with it & keep us posted on how it goes.

[rkearns10]

On 10/18/2018 at 12:14 PM, drzaius said:

I would just run the slab through the table saw, taking just enough off to leave a square, sharp corner. That's the tool that I have that leaves the best edge on such a large piece. 

No table saw, other than a portable one with a pretty small fence that won't fit the 25" counter depth. Should I go straight router, or circular + router?

[drzaius]

Circ saw & straight edge & then just clean the cut up with the router & straight edge. You want a nice edge for gluing the triangles to.

[rkearns10]

Gotcha. I owe you guys a beer, I swear. Newb question: Does epoxy resin also require hardener? Or in this context is hardener necessary? 

[Coop]

Yep, epoxy is two parts. Is there a drop box for our addresses for the beer? 

[rkearns10]

Hah Coop I'm not saying your input went unnoticed but the beer worthy guys are in Canada and Atlanta!   So newb question number 2: is there any reason in this context to go with fast or slow hardener?

[wdwerker]

Slow ! You are gonna need time and the lack of pressure to succeed ! That goes for so many pursuits........

beer ? Damn I thought good Tequila was the minimum...... or at least a decent Irish Whisky !

[drzaius]

Definitely the slowest you can get. Nothing worse that trying to beat epoxy that's in a hurry to kick. When you mix epoxy when the ambient temp is high, it's a good idea to do it in a shallow bowl rather than a cup, cause the epoxy generates heat & can go off a lot sooner in a cup.

[rkearns10]

Right on! - Thanks for the intel. - So (first world problems) Amazon is a 9 day wait for West Systems epoxy/hardener. That's a tough turnaround time for me as I'd like to get ripping on this in the next day or two....do you guys know of any comparable substitutes at the big box retailers? or at least something ballpark?

[drzaius]

Where are you located? Most big cities will have places that you could get epoxy, doesn't have to be West. Woodworker supply stores, marine supply stores.

[rkearns10]

Scouring through amazon right now actually. Looking at some other options. - Is the ratio 5:1, 2:1 relevant here? Was looking at this on the cheaper side 

 

https://www.amazon.com/System-Three-0102K40-General-Hardener/dp/B00UVH2MLW/ref=sr_1_7?dd=0Q32HRNN0-dp4C_wqCYvcA%2C%2C&ddc_refnmnt=pfod&ie=UTF8&qid=1540065744&sr=8-7&keywords=epoxy%2Bresin%2Band%2Bhardener&refinements=p_97%3A11292772011&th=1

[drzaius]

Looks like the ratio is 2:1 for that epoxy.

[rkearns10]

1 minute ago, drzaius said:

Looks like the ratio is 2:1 for that epoxy.

Right, but I'm curious if that makes any difference at all in this case? Assuming from your response it's not relevant to the application

[Isaac]

There are many functional epoxies. Many woodworkers who anticipate working with a lot of epoxy use the west system, which has both good performance and is easy to use. I don't use much epoxy in my work, yet, so I have not invested in the west system and have used several systems successfully. Here is one:

https://www.amazon.com/Bob-Smith-Industries-Mid-Cure-Combined/dp/B07JDQ9491/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1540137138&sr=8-3&keywords=bobs+epoxy

The key to epoxy is precisely following the mixing instructions, in particular, get the ratio dead on, and do a very good job mixing. Poorly eyeballing the ratio or insufficient mixing are the recipe for having gummy epoxy that doesn't harden, or takes a very long time to harden, and might have weak spots. Try to avoid bubbles in the mix and if you get bubbles, these can sometimes be gently coaxed out by heating the epoxy with a blow drier or heat gun. 

 

[wdwerker]

The mix just needs to be what the manufacturer deems best for that combination  of their products.

[rkearns10]

56 minutes ago, Isaac said:

There are many functional epoxies. Many woodworkers who anticipate working with a lot of epoxy use the west system, which has both good performance and is easy to use. I don't use much epoxy in my work, yet, so I have not invested in the west system and have used several systems successfully. Here is one:

https://www.amazon.com/Bob-Smith-Industries-Mid-Cure-Combined/dp/B07JDQ9491/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1540137138&sr=8-3&keywords=bobs+epoxy

The key to epoxy is precisely following the mixing instructions, in particular, get the ratio dead on, and do a very good job mixing. Poorly eyeballing the ratio or insufficient mixing are the recipe for having gummy epoxy that doesn't harden, or takes a very long time to harden, and might have weak spots. Try to avoid bubbles in the mix and if you get bubbles, these can sometimes be gently coaxed out by heating the epoxy with a blow drier or heat gun. 

 

Isaac, have you ever used the slow cure epoxy by Bob Smith? - I'm looking at it now and there's a review saying that although it's marketed as a "clear" epoxy, it actually looks rather yellow. Not sure if this is a common thing with epoxies and what that might mean for a situation like mine, if it should be avoided or just chipped away ultimately anyway. Maybe not a big deal, just curious if anyone has run into this before.

[rkearns10]

Nevermind, screw it...just bought a few of those slow dry Bob Smiths..great price. Onward and upward.

[Tpt life]

Dig into the search function here if clearness matters. Several have undertaken resin/hardener experiments to find clearest combinations.