Seeking Opinions: Corner Sink Cutout and Butt-Joint on Butcher Block

[rkearns10]

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Dear Carpenters and Wood-Working Folk More Skilled Than I:

The title says most of it: I'm currently installing a full kitchen of butcher block counters, with butt joints, as recommended to me by a very close carpenter pal who suggested it for ease. My friend was aware of our intention to throw in a corner sink, but now I'm thinking a corner sink and butt joint aren't really the greatest combo and this was an oversight. 
The image attached is a rough mock-up of what I'd like to achieve....but I'm starting to think a miter joint would have provided more stability for this type of undertaking.

I plan to cut out a small triangle piece to fill in the gap of the front angle for the sink, subsequently filling out the area in front of the sink. The link below contains an example of a similar corner sink (and angle fill-in piece), however, with a miter joint.

https://www.oldtownhome.com/2012/9/1...ters-are-Done/

I'm absolutely willing to utilize a smaller sink, in order to create more space on the back left exposed area of the joint, in order to sneak in some kind of better connection, but my question to you all is: is this a crazy attempt destined to fail? Is there any feasible chance of both creating a decent joint here, while also adding a corner sink? I'm open to suggestions and would like to make it work. Or should I simply use this piece elsewhere and miter the corner instead? 

I've been told already that due to the breadboard ends cross-graining, a biscuit/glue is out of the question, and for seasonal expansion the only real option would be to throw ONE pin in the joint and live with movement wherever said pin does not go. Also potential for domino or blind spine. -- Is this my only option? Am I trying to make something impossible work here?

Any help would be greatly appreciated and I apologize about the lengthy post.

[Coop]

Just MO only, I recently did something similar to a galley in a sailboat, using two slabs from IKEA. In my  case, miter or butt was aesthetics as both were both end grain to end grain. I opted to the Domaino as I had one and went with a 45* miter. A biscuit cutter and/or domno will greatly enhance your alignment. Not sure why you would consider the link provided? 

[drzaius]

I did my daughter's & son's kitchens with Ikea butcher block slabs, but with a miter at the corner. That looks so much better, but does take more material. Doing a butt joint like in your photo will lead to problems with wood movement & subsequent water/food infiltration at the joint.

First, be sure to make the cuts dead on. I made rough cuts & then used a router with a pattern bit to finish the cut perfectly flat & straight. Because it's not long grain to long grain, the joint is going to need more than just glue. Dominoes would be great here, but a double row if biscuits (what I used) will be very strong as well. to pull the joint together, countertop bolts work well & aren't expensive. Epoxy is a good choice here.

I've done 3 wooden countertops with undermount sinks & on all I sealed the underside around the sink & the edges of the cutout with clear epoxy (West Systems). A heat gun helps the epoxy to penetrate the wood. The sink is then secured from below with epoxy & screws. All the cutouts still look like new 1, 3, & 4 years later. No issues with the water at all. 2 of the sinks were finished with oil & the other with wipe-on poly. No matter what the finish is, extra care to wipe spills right away must be taken with wood counters

Edit: Nope, I lied. I did not use epoxy to secure the sink, but rather a clear Lexel type caulk to allow for wood movement. Spacer washers were used between the sink & counter to give the caulk joint some thickness to allow it to survive the movement.

[wdwerker]

I would definitely go with a mitered corner if at all possible. Domino's or biscuits to align the joint and epoxy. Promptly clean up water or any liquid spills. Repairing or replacing a failed job will cost much more than doing it correctly in the first place.

[Just Bob]

I have done a couple of butcher block kitchens.  I used this jig to cut a "mason's" miter.  https://www.amazon.com/Trend-COMBI66-Kitchen-Countertop-Jig/dp/B001UQ5PBW

The jig also helps you line up and cut the recesses for  joint fasteners like this https://www.rockler.com/tite-joint-fastener?sid=V9146?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6MHdBRCtARIsAEigMxHKrIyiPUV74m64MLHsKvrCgHkM9Q13e5Ww1kq3qJwS3pv-6zsI0icaAqh4EALw_wcB.  Use no glue or epoxy!  The counter top blanks I put in were from grizzly and are 1 3/4 thick.  If you end up using a miter, still use the fasteners and no glue.  Wood movement is an issue, the fasteners allow you to make adjustments over time if needed.  If you are  really worried about water in the joint use a non-drying silicone calk in the joint. 

The jig seems a little pricey but it sure made my life easier and the router bit and bushing are included.  Both kitchen counters are holding up nicely, and trust me since my daughter lives in one and my wife in the other, I would hear about any problems!  The picture is from my daughters kitchen.

[drzaius]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:22 PM, Just Bob said:

If you end up using a miter, still use the fasteners and no glue.  Wood movement is an issue, the fasteners allow you to make adjustments over time if needed.

Wood movement will not be an issue if you use a miter. Both pieces are expanding & contracting in the same directions & at the same rate. I think it's very important to maintain a water tight joint & the only way that will happen is if it's glued. Contrary to popular belief, silicone is not an all purpose sealant, especially on wood. All it takes is for a spill on the joint to go unnoticed for a couple of hours to blow it all apart.

Edit: I'm going to back track a little on this. With moisture changes, the geometry of the miter joint will change slightly. As the top gets wider (cross grain expansion) the angle will change from 45* to something less because the length changes less than the width. But the 2 counters I've done with mitered corners have not had any issue with cracking or separation.

[rkearns10]

23 hours ago, K Cooper said:

Just MO only, I recently did something similar to a galley in a sailboat, using two slabs from IKEA. In my  case, miter or butt was aesthetics as both were both end grain to end grain. I opted to the Domaino as I had one and went with a 45* miter. A biscuit cutter and/or domno will greatly enhance your alignment. Not sure why you would consider the link provided? 

I just mentioned the link provided for case support in the miter/corner sink setup with the triangle to fill the front. Seems it can be done, but I'm just wanting to do it in a way that I won't be paranoid about it holding up. You know what I mean?

[rkearns10]

Thanks so much for the help guys. I really appreciate it. I will definitely be utilizing a different piece and going for the miter. Roughing it in with a meticulous cut, and then routing for a best-case tight seam. Then I'm hearing either dominos or double biscuits with epoxy is the best bet here? Would I additionally need to throw in a miter joint bolt as well to suck things in? One or just two? Lastly given the front piece to cover the front end of the sink, would a best-case scenario here be a mimic of the big seam? Biscuits and or dominos and seal with epoxy all around? Both at the joints and for the sink?

[drzaius]

10 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

Would I additionally need to throw in a miter joint bolt as well to suck things in? One or just two?

I would do both; belt & suspenders approach is the way to go in this situation.

For the front fill piece, consider gluing on a triangular piece to each slab with the grain running in the same direction as the main slab. then cut the miter so the joint runs right from the front to the back corner of the counter. The way the guy in the link did it, I'd be worried about wood movement at the joint.

For securing the sink, epoxy is not the best choice because it will interfere with cross grain wood movement. I know I said I used epoxy in the earlier post, but I now remember that's not what I did. I used screws & washers (as spacers) to secure the undermount sink & a Lexel type clear caulking to seal it. the spacers were to give the caulk joint some thickness so movement doesn't cause it to tear. With careful cleanup, the calk joint just disappears.

[wdwerker]

Dowels and or Tite Joint fasteners will work too. Mostly for alignment and the fasteners are probably easier than rigging clamps on a miter that big. Lexcel caulk is wonderful stuff, cleans up with mineral spirits, but it can take a day or 2 to cure (maybe 3 in the winter) . I've used it for over 40 years. Remains flexible for decades.

[drzaius]

3 hours ago, wdwerker said:

Lexcel caulk is wonderful stuff, cleans up with mineral spirits

Not just cleans up, but it leaves a very neat, clean joint.

[rkearns10]

10 hours ago, drzaius said:

I would do both; belt & suspenders approach is the way to go in this situation.

For the front fill piece, consider gluing on a triangular piece to each slab with the grain running in the same direction as the main slab. then cut the miter so the joint runs right from the front to the back corner of the counter. The way the guy in the link did it, I'd be worried about wood movement at the joint.

For securing the sink, epoxy is not the best choice because it will interfere with cross grain wood movement. I know I said I used epoxy in the earlier post, but I now remember that's not what I did. I used screws & washers (as spacers) to secure the undermount sink & a Lexel type clear caulking to seal it. the spacers were to give the caulk joint some thickness so movement doesn't cause it to tear. With careful cleanup, the calk joint just disappears.

 

Sorry but I'm a bit confused here...what's exactly the difference between what you just mentioned and how the guy in the link did it? Help me understand.

[drzaius]

His was a single triangle with the grain running 45* to the grain on either slab. It may not even be big enough to have a problem with movement. A drawing would be worth 1000 words here, but I don't know how to make that happen with my phone.

[rkearns10]

17 hours ago, drzaius said:

His was a single triangle with the grain running 45* to the grain on either slab. It may not even be big enough to have a problem with movement. A drawing would be worth 1000 words here, but I don't know how to make that happen with my phone.

Haha it's ok! We can revisit hopefully and I can get my brain around what you're thinking. So just want to play a bit of devil's advocate here guys, with some feedback quoted below. Another forum member feels pretty staunchly against my plan, and I get his hesitations.  As is always the case, there's a million ways to skin a cat. Heck I even had one contractor friend of mine tell me NO stain on maple, which I presume isn't a hard-and-fast rule (and it came out great) but you get the point.... every contractor has an opinion, a temperament, a set of standards, and a unique confluence of history that creates their opinions, but it doesn't make things any less possible or feasible. I spoke to the folks who performed this operation (corner sink butcher block as posted above) and they said it's been holding up perfectly fine, with the right care. Heck they didn't even use joint bolts!

I guess my question is (before diving into  a better way of pulling off the triangle as you stated), am I just setting myself up for a failure here?

 

"I'll just qualify all of what I am going to say by establishing, I hate work that looks like the homeowner did it. It is either pro quality in appearance, or don't do it. 

The only way to do that install, and have it look right, is the way I have already stated. Anything else will look like a hack job IMO.

The issue with the triangle, above and beyond looking like an after thought, is that the butcher block will have the top edge just slightly eased. Notice it is not sharp? Now you are going to try to stick a piece that you have cut on there, it will have a slight gap on the surface because that edge has been eased. Sure epoxy will likely fill it, still going to look bad IMO.

I like the idea of using epoxy for the joint, the West system although pricey, is great stuff, I use it a lot, make sure you get the pumps, so easy to mix that way.

Biscuits will do absolutely nothing for you from a strength perspective, at best they will help align but even then not so much. They depend on the moisture in the wood glue to expand, very unlikely epoxy will have the same effect.

Counter top bolts are mandatory for any joint IMO.

So you are caught between will it work, and will it look right. You have to decide as you are going to live with it. I couldn't live with it the way you are describing. But then for me I wouldn't consider butcher block tops at all, but that is another discussion.

[Tom King]

The one time I did this, I mitered the corner, used an almost full length spline, and used the Tite Joint rings and bolts.   I used a Forstner bit, and a small, movable drill press.  I think I did buy their tightening rod.  If I'm remembering right, that was in 1981, or 2, so I can't remember all the details.  I do remember cutting the miters with a circular saw, and homemade guide, like I'm still using today.

[drzaius]

2 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

Biscuits will do absolutely nothing for you from a strength perspective, at best they will help align but even then not so much. They depend on the moisture in the wood glue to expand, very unlikely epoxy will have the same effect.

In the case where you are dealing with an end grain joint, which this is, this statement is completely false and whoever tells you so

 

 just doesn't understand how to properly use them. There needs to be plenty of glue thoroughly coating the sides of the slot and the biscuit. Doesn't matter if they don't expand (& they don't) with epoxy cause it will fill the gaps & provide lots of strength. Likewise with joining sheet goods. I've ripped apart butt joints in sheet goods & the edges are just mangled. The sheet goods fail, not the biscuits.

For a long grain joint, biscuits (or loose tenons) will do nothing for strength, but can be useful for alignment.

2 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

The issue with the triangle, above and beyond looking like an after thought, is that the butcher block will have the top edge just slightly eased. Notice it is not sharp? Now you are going to try to stick a piece that you have cut on there, it will have a slight gap on the surface because that edge has been eased.

You could rip just 1/8" or whatever it takes to remove the eased edge & then redo it after everything is glued up.

2 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

Sure epoxy will likely fill it, still going to look bad IMO

Oooo, don't even go there 

2 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

"I'll just qualify all of what I am going to say by establishing, I hate work that looks like the homeowner did it. It is either pro quality in appearance, or don't do it. 

That's a very good attitude to have.

[rkearns10]

On 10/2/2018 at 11:16 PM, drzaius said:

His was a single triangle with the grain running 45* to the grain on either slab. It may not even be big enough to have a problem with movement. A drawing would be worth 1000 words here, but I don't know how to make that happen with my phone.

 

Still interested in your picture here....

[rkearns10]

On 10/3/2018 at 7:20 PM, drzaius said:

In the case where you are dealing with an end grain joint, which this is, this statement is completely false and whoever tells you so

 

 just doesn't understand how to properly use them. There needs to be plenty of glue thoroughly coating the sides of the slot and the biscuit. Doesn't matter if they don't expand (& they don't) with epoxy cause it will fill the gaps & provide lots of strength. Likewise with joining sheet goods. I've ripped apart butt joints in sheet goods & the edges are just mangled. The sheet goods fail, not the biscuits.

For a long grain joint, biscuits (or loose tenons) will do nothing for strength, but can be useful for alignment.

You could rip just 1/8" or whatever it takes to remove the eased edge & then redo it after everything is glued up.

Oooo, don't even go there 

That's a very good attitude to have.

 

Thought there was some cantankerousness behind that response! Here's the thing.. I'm not expecting this to be the most perfect option, but ultimately, I've just got to go with it. I have no choice but to run with the corner sink. So I'm only hoping to make it A) Functional and strong and B Aesthetically pleasing enough that it doesn't look like total garbage

[drzaius]

13 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

 

Still interested in your picture here....

Here's the idea.

 

[rkearns10]

5 minutes ago, drzaius said:

Here's the idea.

 

 

Look at that beauty. So you're saying cut the miter through the triangle front piece as well? What would be the advantage of that, isn't that just creating another length-wise joint to stress? Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong... Thanks for taking the time to upload your drawing

[wdwerker]

Epoxy and fasteners plus the cabinet below should be strong enough. The little front triangles could come from the scraps of the miter cuts. Make the initial cuts longer , glue the triangles on using fasteners & biscuits/dowels/dominos/ splines then cut the final cuts across the entire assembly after drying and missing any metal fasteners you may have used . Then you can prep for the final glue up. Plan the sink cuts and place the fasteners outside the cut lines. Do a dry assembly before mixing the epoxy. Do not use fast drying epoxy, you will want time to fiddle with the fit. 2-4 hour or longer if possible. Overnight would be my choice.

[drzaius]

2 hours ago, rkearns10 said:

 

Look at that beauty. So you're saying cut the miter through the triangle front piece as well? What would be the advantage of that, isn't that just creating another length-wise joint to stress? Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong... Thanks for taking the time to upload your drawing

Just my opinion, but I think it looks better with the the triangle grain oriented the same as the the main body. I also think there would be less concern with cross grain movement doing it this way.

@wdwerker explains just how it should be done. I would add emphasis to the thing about not using 5 minute epoxy. Even with slow set epoxy, you want to do when the temperature is a little cool. The last thing you want with this glue up is to be rushed.

[wdwerker]

Mix epoxy in a shallow wide container. Deep containers will concentrate the heat and reduce your working time significantly. Glove , rags & solvent for cleanup are good to have handy .

[rkearns10]

This is very helpful guys, I really really am grateful for all the input. This might be a dumb question, but now that I've switched to a miter from a butt joint, I'm mentally running through the best attack for making sure the counter fits and gets scribed to the wall, while also meets flush for a nice miter.  I have my long  run (back wall) of butcher block in place, and have an adjacent side wall piece meeting for the miter. I don't plan on fiddling too much with my long piece (back wall) in terms of scribing, because the house is old and I'll be actually true-ing up some running corners for tiling, so not much scribing there (moreso busting into the sheetrock and furring a bit), but let's say I still need to scribe my side wall piece of butcher block as well, even just a little bit. What would the protocol or order of operations look like to ensure that the scribe happens while still allowing for a true long/corner measure for the miter? 

 

[Coop]

That’s going to be a bugger! Will you not be using a backsplash?