G S Haydon Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Real humans only wear loin cloths. Getting a little caught up, but you should get the point. Woodworking has progressed with the times. We have found more efficient ways to complete tasks. Why should woodworking be singled out to be considered "real" if you only use what was used in the past? No, real woodworkers wear loin cloths . Perhaps Marc might offer a wood whisperer version, this logo might look good front and center......whispering to the wood...... Second, because it sells books, DVDs training courses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintersedge Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Several thoughts have not been discussed:1. Where a wood species is endangered or so rare that it is cost prohibitive. Plywood or veneer over MDF is a viable solution. 2. Would old world masters laugh at us for gluing boards together to make wider planks? Irrelevant if old growth is available?3. What about laminated veneer lumber? It is not the most aesthetically appealing but structurally it is superior to MDF and plywood. I personally prefer all hardwood because I am majority hand tool. Built-ins will always be plywood because I hate MDF dust. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Wow, this is a heck of a thread. Makes me feel guilty for all the plywood I've used over the years building cabinets. I've done so many built ins over the years. Not sure how I'd gotten them all done without plywood. I also hate to see all the MDF basing. If you are painting a cabinet and want a raised panel, I think your silly if you don't use MDF. For example, here's a picture of a commission I earned on a couple of cabinets for an odd sized dining room. I remember the clients requesting them painted white. I offered solid wood or mdf raised panels in the doors. When you list the pros-and-cons it's almost a no brainer. MDF raised panels: Smooth as glass after finishing No seasonal movement Won't ever rattle (this is pre-space-ball days) 1/3 the cost of material In all likelihood will last forever Real wood raised panels: More work (read as more cost) to get perfectly smooth They will move seasonally May rattle some times 3 x the cost of material May bow or cup over the years So, should I have demanded the client take real wood raised panels? Demanded that they pay more for what in this case would be what I'd consider to an inferior choice? Or should I have eaten the cost myself because I'm too good to use MDF? Or should I have taken some snobbish stance against modern materials? Everything has its time and place. If you making a painted cabinet with raised panels, in my opinion, that's the time to use MDF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Great work Chet . So pleased that MDF is getting a fair hearing. That stuff has its place, context context context Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 i have no problem with mdf. I just don't understand why people insist on sticking plastic plants on top of their cabinets . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Agreed, its a marketig thing. No different than saying "you are not really driving unless you are driving a Jaguar." . So what's your point. Seems like a totally true statement to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 So what's your point. Seems like a totally true statement to me Sweet! You know how to ride in style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 V12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 To be honest, I think Paul Sellers is trying to force his thoughts on woodworking down peoples throats. Back then when they were building furniture with hand tools, their tools were state of the art at the time. Technology has come a long way since. We are happy campers working with our tablesaws and routers, etc, while the industrial world has already moved to cnc. Our tools in our shop are already obsolete. The guys back in the 17th century would have absolutely flipped over modern hand tools today, maybe even thought it was sorcery. As for one persons belief of what real woodworking is, everyone has different views about everything, thats why we are so diverse. Sometimes good, sometimes very bad. I think if we sent a sheet of plywood back in time, it would have changed a lot of things for makers back then, and remove some of the snob from todays wannabe purists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Designers Folkform have used 80-year-old samples of hardboard in these cabinets for Swedish interiors brand Svenskt Tenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dwacker Posted October 9, 2013 Popular Post Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Wow, this is a heck of a thread. Makes me feel guilty for all the plywood I've used over the years building cabinets. I've done so many built ins over the years. Not sure how I'd gotten them all done without plywood. I also hate to see all the MDF basing. If you are painting a cabinet and want a raised panel, I think your silly if you don't use MDF. For example, here's a picture of a commission I earned on a couple of cabinets for an odd sized dining room. I remember the clients requesting them painted white. I offered solid wood or mdf raised panels in the doors. When you list the pros-and-cons it's almost a no brainer. MDF raised panels: Smooth as glass after finishing No seasonal movement Won't ever rattle (this is pre-space-ball days) 1/3 the cost of material In all likelihood will last forever Real wood raised panels: More work (read as more cost) to get perfectly smooth They will move seasonally May rattle some times 3 x the cost of material May bow or cup over the years So, should I have demanded the client take real wood raised panels? Demanded that they pay more for what in this case would be what I'd consider to an inferior choice? Or should I have eaten the cost myself because I'm too good to use MDF? Or should I have taken some snobbish stance against modern materials? Everything has its time and place. If you making a painted cabinet with raised panels, in my opinion, that's the time to use MDF. I agree with this for the most part except I dont think the pros need to be inflated. Not to come down on Chet but thats how I see parts of this post. We all know it all really boils down to strictly money or time is money. In the case of the cabinet doors the MDF panel gets the job done for less money and that's it. Other than giving the door a more heavier feel it has no other advantages besides the bottom line. Will never rattle / pre space ball days? Space balls in one form or another have been used since the early sixties. Other than immediate money there is no benefit to the customer. MDF door panels are a one hit wonder. With MDF door panels I tell everyone the same thing. You may love me for saving you money today but when it comes time to refinish you will curse me so remember this conversation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 PB, You're right of course. But I didn't discover Space balls until about 2 years ago. ... Okay not the movie Space Balls. I saw that in the theater with my dad when it came out. But the space balls you stick into raised panel doors were unknown to me until I heard about them on this forum. But one other thing. I can tell you as a guy building cabinets for 20 years and seeing a lot of cabinets (mine and other people's), raised panel doors built with real wood do cup or bow over the years. I'm not sure if it's why they were made, but most hinges used on cabinets today will allow you to adjust the door to account for that bow or cup. If you make the raised panel with MDF, that will never happen. Also, if you use a trick I learned from Norm, and paint the panel with 50% water, 50% tightbond before painting it. It's super easy to make it as smooth as glass. But of course, I agree with you in principle. Normally it comes down to time and money. I don't want my clients to pay for more than they need to... unless, of course, they are snobs... well, then.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 PB, one more thing. All these years I never thought of the refinishing thing. You've got me thinking on that one. On the one hand, who refinishes painted cabinet doors? On the other hand, people refinish all kinds of stuff? On the other hand, you could always replace the door? On the other hand, replacing the door by definition means it didn't last forever? Hmm.... great food for thought. That's a good one, PB. Never thought of that. I'm gunna stew on it for a while. Thanks for that nugget. I'll salt that away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Okay this is the last "one more thing", then I promise to drop it for a while. I'd like to state for the record that I am NOT a fan of painting any of my work. But I have clients would request it all the time. 9 times out of 10 they request white. Which would never be my choice. I just don't like the style. But again, I really try to give my clients what they want, and try to lay out their options. I once built a couple the most beautiful built in Murphy Bed with cabinets along side. The whole thing was done in lightly dyed maple. I thought it was gorgeous. They thought it was gorgeous. Then they sold their house 5 or 6 years later. The new owners painted the whole thing teal. I thought "Really, teal... really?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Okay this is the last "one more thing", then I promise to drop it for a while. I'd like to state for the record that I am NOT a fan of painting any of my work. But I have clients would request it all the time. 9 times out of 10 they request white. Which would never be my choice. I just don't like the style. But again, I really try to give my clients what they want, and try to lay out their options. I once built a couple the most beautiful built in Murphy Bed with cabinets along side. The whole thing was done in lightly dyed maple. I thought it was gorgeous. They thought it was gorgeous. Then they sold their house 5 or 6 years later. The new owners painted the whole thing teal. I thought "Really, teal... really?" Dont get me started on paint. Dont get me wrong I do lots of white cabinets and many other solid colors but I would never paint a cabinet. Using the proper wood finish nets much better longer lasting results. Things like glue size on mdf is really not necessary. It doesnt matter if its wood or mdf if you are using the right under coater with a lacquer, conversion varnish or even poly you dont need these make shift methods but thats a topic for another discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 +1 on MDF panels for painting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Be careful saying that MDF warp will "never happen." I have been paid to replace some warped MDF in some high humidity kitchens. It has it's place for sure but it is not suited for every location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 V12? 4.0L straight six, nothing better than a Jag 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 4.0L straight six, nothing better than a Jag 6 Doesn't BMW make an "OK" straight six? Only kidding! My inlaws had an XJ6 for a bit... Sweet ride, with an absolutely terrific interior! Here in the US, I've recently gotten hooked on "Wheeler Dealers" from the UK. I love what they come up with for subjects. I'm a huge road racing (including Vintage) fan, which involves many cars from across the pond, and the guy who appears in "Chasing Classic Cars" is local, just across the Connecticut river from me... I've been a "Top Gear" fan for many years. I get to the UK (Belfast & Bushmills, Northern Ireland) about every 8-10 months, and always enjoy my drive over there. I hope you guys appreciate your B roads. We don't have anything comparable over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 Re: plywood = cheap... Don't forget... Really good, void-free / high ply count, plywood often costs more than crappy secondary solid woods. That's something to point out when explaining why you're using it for it's stable properties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdie Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 This thread has been moving so quickly it's hard to make a comment but Mel made a comment earlier that had a couple points I wanted to raise. The first was to the effect that plywood is "inferior." I'm not sure if Mel was stating that as his own opinion or as a reflection on the point that Paul Sellers was trying to raise but it rankled me a little bit. Having spent $ on some really nice faced sheets to use for specific projects it was neither "cheap" nor "inferior." In fact, in one of the projects I think it'd be difficult for people to realize it's ply unless it's pointed out. Pictures of the finished piece I'm thinking of are posted in my gallery. The other comment was that Roy Underhill is never seen using ply. Don't get me wrong. I love St. Roy and watch him frequently but the woodworking he does reflects a certain era and genre in which plywood was not even a consideration. Laminations, however, were. Then again, what is plywood exactly? ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopnhack Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 Echoing so many other posters, plywood and mdf have their places in woodworking as does solid wood. We just have to know when and how to use them to maximize their potentials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted October 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 Byrdie,My comment was a reflection on the Sellers comment.The Roy Underhill comment is a point that brings the two points together, in a nice little package The real point is that true hand tool galoot types will never ever ever use plywood. Why? The pieces are made of plies and glue. This makes using it rather difficult for hand tool guys. I can not imagine hand planing or hand jointing plywood It's just not in the cards. Now, a fast spinning tablesaw blade can rip right through with no problems. This is why the old school hand tool only guys look at plywood as an inferior product. They can't use the stuff! Don't forget the marketing that's also involved. If dear ol Roy added a nice Powermatic table saw and started a sheet good series the world as we know it would likely end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 Mel, that is one of the most well reasoned and fair comments I have heard on the topic. Thank you for that perspective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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