Bosch getting sued by sawstop

[Woodenskye]

Bosch with deeper pockets will probably win this case in my opinion, however Sawstop has the right to fight to limit competition based on patents they own. If Bosch wins, they will make their saw and probably license the technology to other manufactures, just like they did with air bags and other automotive parts. In the end this may lead to more saws having this type of feature, which should be better for the consumer, but the person behind the saw and what's between his ears still will be the biggest factor in reducing injuries.

[Jim DaddyO]

Yes, Gass is a lawyer, I don't know in what capacity.  He has been trying to get legislation to make flesh sensing technology mandatory in industry (not a political statement, just a statement of his activity).  I would imagine that the wording on his patents are pretty well written.  Only time will tell what the outcome will be.  When I go looking for a new saw, flesh sensing is not even on the radar.  If it is there at the same price on a good saw, why not?  but I am not going to pay extra for it.  I still have all my fingers.  I look at it like all the safety equipment on cars.  Yes it saves lives, but some folks seem to rely on the technology to save their life instead of just paying attention and becoming a better driver.  I still see folks with a phone on their ear despite it being against the law here.

[Stobes21]

I can say pretty definitively as a former lawyer that morality and right and wrong has nothing to do with it. The lawyers will talk a big game but it all comes down to money. Sawstop is making money on this feature and Bosch wants a piece of the pie. So sawstop is suing to try to protect its turf. I'm with Eric: who cares? Companies sue each other all the time over this kind of stuff. Just part of the system.

[Pete Staehling]

Unless you: 1) Are an intellectual property attorney and 2) Have read all the respective patents and 3) actually seen both technologies in action, I really don't think you are qualified to opine on the merits of the case. Steve Gass's personality or motivations are irrelevant.

I agree on judging the merits of the case.  I am surprised that folks assume one way or the other on whether the Bosch saw violates the SS patent.

 

Steve Gass's personality or motivations are irrelevant in deciding the merits of the case, but may be relevant in some folks decision of what to buy.

 

BTW, just me, but I have to wonder how common flesh to blade accidents are with table saws.  I figure that they are or should be non existent or at least extremely rare given even moderately careful use.  I'll just use my saw carefully and skip flesh sensing technology until it is cheaper and more widely available.  Even then I would only buy it when I was buying a saw any way.

[CessnaPilotBarry]

Unless you: 1) Are an intellectual property attorney and 2) Have read all the respective patents and 3) actually seen both technologies in action, I really don't think you are qualified to opine on the merits of the case. Steve Gass's personality or motivations are irrelevant.

 

 

Exactly correct.   I'm amazed how many people already know the details of the violation or non-violation claim, as well as in the inner workings of both systems.

 

As I understand things, that once you've applied for, or been granted a patent, you are required to defend it, or the patent(s) lose protection.   Can anyone with professional knowledge, not guessing or Googling, speak to this?

[CessnaPilotBarry]

BTW, just me, but I have to wonder how common flesh to blade accidents are with table saws.  I figure that they are or should be non existent or at least extremely rare given even moderately careful use.

 

They're more common than they should be...  and not just newbies.    I know of a 30+ year pro, who teaches, makes DVD's, and writes prolifically, who got saved by a SawStop just last year.   

 

When I started woodworking 20+ years ago, It was noticable how often hands in photos were missing finger tips.  Other folks I know who have been pros for decades all seem to have witnessed an accident.  One guy worked with a guy who dadoed the back of his hand.

 

With moderately careful use, modern cars shouldn't crash either.

[wtnhighlander]

Safety tech is nice. It lowers your risk if accident more than you think, just by having more complex parts to break and prevent you from running the tool.

[Raefco]

 

 

They're more common than they should be...  and not just newbies.    I know of a 30+ year pro, who teaches, makes DVD's, and writes prolifically, who got saved by a SawStop just last year.   

 

When I started woodworking 20+ years ago, It was noticable how often hands in photos were missing finger tips.  Other folks I know who have been pros for decades all seem to have witnessed an accident.  Once guy worked with a guy who dadoed the back of his hand.

 

With moderately careful use, modern cars shouldn't crash either.

 

 

I have been in a construction trade union for 28 years, I am 4 generation craftsman, that I know of, I know 2 people that have lost fingers to saws. One was a masonry saw with a faulty guard, the other was my middle school wood shop teacher, he was cutting 1/4 plexi glass on a cabinet saw.  it's not that hard to keep your fingers, don't stick them where they don't belong, never stand or push in the path of the blade and stay 4" away at all times.

 

As a Mason I have nearly lost a finger a time or two, but it is usually due to miscommunication between you and the crane operator that you cannot even see, I have rode 12,000lb limestone 80' to their final resting spot and welded off the anchorage system while standing on it, Ive been lucky and those days are behind me.

 

 

Safety tech is nice. It lowers your risk if accident more than you think, just by having more complex parts to break and prevent you from running the tool.

 

 

 

…or it breaks and you can't find parts, or afford them.

 

 

[collinb]

Anyone remember the IBM PC?  IBM had a solid patent.  But they didn't enforce it.  At least not for a long time.

As I recall Compaq ended up paying a tidy sum to IBM some years later. Ended up being so much per machine.

It would not surprise me if some royalty situation were to develop out of this.

As was noted before, this is the stuff lawyers are made for.

The rest of us are mere observers.

[Raefco]

Anyone remember the IBM PC?  IBM had a solid patent.  But they didn't enforce it.  At least not for a long time.

As I recall Compaq ended up paying a tidy sum to IBM some years later. Ended up being so much per machine.

It would not surprise me if some royalty situation were to develop out of this.

As was noted before, this is the stuff lawyers are made for.

The rest of us are mere observers.

 

I had an uncle that went to work for IBM right out of the Air force in the early 60's, he worked for them till the mid 90's. I was exposed to the commodore 64 and beyond, if I was a smart kid I would have followed his path. when I first started my own business in the late 80's he hooked me up with a PC that had Menu Maker, quicken and 16 bit color, man o man was I cutting edge for a 4 man operation. LOL

[wdwerker]

Everybody seems to try to cut a fingertip off. I tried to split mine lengthwise ! 1978 in the basement on a crappy Craftsman direct drive aluminum cast top saw.

[Gary]

Unless you: 1) Are an intellectual property attorney and 2) Have read all the respective patents and 3) actually seen both technologies in action, I really don't think you are qualified to opine on the merits of the case. Steve Gass's personality or motivations are irrelevant.

 

I'm not sure what you're implying here... that none of us are allowed to voice an opinion unless we are a patent attorney? I'm not an attorney, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

I agree on judging the merits of the case.  I am surprised that folks assume one way or the other on whether the Bosch saw violates the SS patent.

 

Steve Gass's personality or motivations are irrelevant in deciding the merits of the case, but may be relevant in some folks decision of what to buy.

 

BTW, just me, but I have to wonder how common flesh to blade accidents are with table saws.  I figure that they are or should be non existent or at least extremely rare given even moderately careful use.  I'll just use my saw carefully and skip flesh sensing technology until it is cheaper and more widely available.  Even then I would only buy it when I was buying a saw any way.

 

I wrote a research paper on Gass and Sawstop last year for an ethics class. What seemed apparent to me was that Gass has so many broad, and frankly overreaching, patents; that it is almost completely impossible for another company to market a saw that uses any type of flesh sensing technology without patent infringement. He really has this thing buttoned up.

 

And, like you said, Gass' personality or motivations are really irrelevant. I do think that because Gass was turned down by all the major manufacturers to license this technology, it created a lot of sour grapes, grudge or whatever you would like to call it. I found a quote from Gass essentially stating that everyone had their chance, now the option to license Sawstop technology is off the table.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure that I blame him. He's created an incredibly successful company based on tech that nobody else wanted, so hey... I think he should defend the crap out of it

 

As for the table saw injuries; yeah, far too common. My wife is a surgical nurse and she sees these cases on a regular basis, unfortunately.