Straight-sided chisels - why to use?

[Wood Basher]

I have few tools and most of those were inherited. Among my chisels I have a mix of bevel-edged chisels and straight-sided chisels. (BTW Is the correct term firmer chisels?) Anyway, I can see times when there are advantages of using bevel-edged chisels. I can see times when it makes no difference. I don't understand why straight-sided chisels would ever be better though so why were chisels even made like that? Is it just a hold over from days of yore when it was easier to make them that way, or are there occasions when I should prefer the straight-edged option?

[Eric.]

Are you talking about mortise chisels? 

 

 

Firmer's chisels have flat sides too, and they're tougher than bevel-edge chisels but not as tough as mortise chisels.  Firmer's chisels are more commonly used for timber framing.  I don't own any personally.

[BonPacific]

 

1 minute ago, Eric. said:

Are you talking about mortise chisels? 

i think he's comparing chisels like the Hirsch Firmer, with a flat grind along the sides:

and something more like the Lie Nielsen bevel-edge chisels that taper to a sharp edge.

 

Wood Basher, to answer your question. As you alluded to, bevel edge chisels are better for some things, like cleaning out dovetails, as you can get right into the corner of them. Other than that, I believe it mostly comes down to ease of manufacture. The flat grind is a simple operation, and tolerances don't matter very much for it. The slim compound taper of something like the Lie Nielsen's is a somewhat harder shape to make.

With more steel behind the edge, flat-sided chisels will have a lower chance of the corners chipping if abused. Similar to how a mortise chisel's thick stock makes it tougher, alongside other benefits like registration. This is more noticeable with lower-quality steels in cheaper tools.

[TerryMcK]

I have a few firmer chisels from 1/4" up to 2". I tend to use my bevel edge bench chisels more than the firmers. One advantage of bevel edged over firmers is that you can cut dovetail sockets with the bevel edged ones. 

The rectangular section firmers can be used for heavier work. 

[Wood Basher]

13 hours ago, Eric. said:

Are you talking about mortise chisels? 

No. I don't own such a chisel, although I do know what it is.

 

13 hours ago, BonPacific said:

i think he's comparing chisels like the Hirsch Firmer, with a flat grind along the sides:

That's not it either. I do have some chisels like that but they are not what I was asking about.

The chisels I mean have no bevel whatsoever. In cross section they are just rectangular. I believe they are the oldest chisels I own. If they have some inherent superiority for certain tasks I would like to know about it. If not, I will stick to my bevel-edged chisels, which I generally find easier to work with.

[Tpt life]

Please post a picture. I cannot be the only confused by seemingly contradictory statements. A picture would cure that. 

[Wood Basher]

33 minutes ago, C Shaffer said:

Please post a picture. I cannot be the only confused by seemingly contradictory statements. A picture would cure that. 

Oh, I had thought I was clear so my first reaction to your post was to wonder what you found to be contradictory. Then I read my latest post again and think perhaps my statement that "the chisels I mean have no bevel whatsoever" could be open to 2 interpretations. I mean they have no side bevel. They do have a bevel at the cutting edge. Does that clarify anything? If not, what is it that you find contradictory? Anyway, I'll get you a picture later.

[Tpt life]

The mortise chisel pictured has no side bevel. The firmer chisels have an eased edge. You clearly said no to the mortise chisel, but then seem to describe one. This seems contradictory. An image will save a lot of back and forth on that point as we will immediately see what you mean. I think something is being lost with words. 

[Wood Basher]

OK, I see what you mean. I had not even considered that as the source of confusion. Apologies for not being clear enough.

I agree that the mortise chisel has no side bevel, but the chisels I have are not - I believe - mortise chisels. Do correct me if I am wrong but to me a mortise chisel has a much thicker blade than other chisels.

Anyway, here is a pic.

[Tpt life]

Yeah, I don't think those are missing a side bevel, I think they are thin plate and are made without the beef that often requires a side bevel. They almost look like a cross with a putty knife. Maybe they are paint or glazing scrapers? 

[wtnhighlander]

Would those be considered flat carving gouges, rather than chisels?

[Tpt life]

What does the stamp read? Are they home made?

[Wood Basher]

1 hour ago, C Shaffer said:

Yeah, I don't think those are missing a side bevel, I think they are thin plate and are made without the beef that often requires a side bevel. They almost look like a cross with a putty knife. Maybe they are paint or glazing scrapers? 

Interesting theory but I don't think so. They are not plate, they are basically the same thickness as my other chisels. They are a little bit thinner but not significantly so, only 0.4 or 0.5 mm thinner at the thinnest part of the blade.

1 hour ago, wtnhighlander said:

Would those be considered flat carving gouges, rather than chisels?

Not something I had considered. I suppose anything is possible but these were my father's and I don't think he ever did any carving so I think it unlikely that he would have carving gouges

 

22 minutes ago, C Shaffer said:

What does the stamp read? Are they home made?

Duh, why didn't I think of that?

They are definitely not home made.

The stamp reads "Mawhood Sheffield Made in England". A bit of googling came up with an item on eBay which is very similar and described as a firmer chisel.

So if we accept that my chisels are in fact firmer chisels, where does that get us? When would I use a firmer chisel rather than a bevel-edged chisel?

[Llama]

Could be used as a paring chisel. I would be very cautious to hit one of these with a mallet... 

[TerryMcK]

They are firmer chisels. As I said before they are used for heavier work. They will stand pounding better than bevel edged ones as they have a bigger cross sectional area.

My firmers taper slightly along their length a little like a wedge.

 

@Wood BasherDo yours have metal rings around the tip of the handle?

[Wood Basher]

15 minutes ago, Llama said:

Could be used as a paring chisel. I would be very cautious to hit one of these with a mallet... 

Do you mean that the square edge would be good for lining up against, for example, the wall of a dado?

What would be the issue with hitting them with a mallet?

[davewyo]

Here's an article by Paul Sellers with a section explaining firmer chisels. Scroll down past mortise chisels.

[Tpt life]

Those "firmer chisels" appear thinner than every one of my bevel edge chisels unless the scale in that photo is thrown off by web stretching magic. I do realize appearance can be deceiving. 

[Llama]

16 minutes ago, Wood Basher said:

Do you mean that the square edge would be good for lining up against, for example, the wall of a dado?

What would be the issue with hitting them with a mallet?

 

My "very cautious" comment is judging the size of the chisel perhaps incorrectly.

I can't think of an application where I'd want to use these over my LN bevel chisels other than paring. As Sellers states, they (firmers) are clunky... The geometry of the bevel chisel allows (in my mind) for the material you are cutting to have an escape route. It seems as though the firmer is an in-between chisel. Sort of the marriage of a bevel edge chisel and a proper mortise chisel. Not heavy duty enough to chop a mortise, and a little too clunky for light chopping work. The added bulk of the mortise chisel allows the user to scoop the material out. If a firmer chisel was capable of this (long term) we wouldn't have mortise chisels.

All that said, if I had a few of these things I'd hone an angle suitable for paring, and leave them to that task.

[Wood Basher]

@davewyo: Thanks for the link. A good article.

@C Shaffer: Yes, looks are deceiving. They do look thin in the photo but it isn't noticeable when I handle the chisels and I had to use a vernier to confirm that they are in fact a little thin.

@Llama: That is pretty much the conclusion I have reached. I tend to reach for a bevel edged chisel for almost everything and the only time I have used one of my firmer chisels (not actually one of those in the photo) was for pairing the bottom of some dadoes.

I think I can more or less retire these chisels. I suppose it would be interesting to know why my dad had them. Knowing my dad, I guess they must have been cheap!

Thanks everyone for your help.

[davewyo]

They are probably really good iron, not today's crapola from the Borg. I would put a nice edge on them and use them for paring. I bet they hold an edge exceptionally well when compared to the Chineesium metal (thanks for the terminology AvE) chisels which are masquerading as Marples "Blue Chip" these days. I have some older Miller's Falls chisels which are my go-to paring chisels because of the superior edge retention.

[Wood Basher]

14 hours ago, TerryMcK said:

My firmers taper slightly along their length a little like a wedge.

 

@Wood BasherDo yours have metal rings around the tip of the handle?

Sorry Terry, I missed replying to your post.

My chisels have a slight taper, like yours. Most do not have a metal ring around the tip of the handle, just a ferrule where the blade goes into the handle. I do have one chisel with a metal ring around the tip of the handle, but that is a different animal. It is very like the Hirsch Firmer that BonPacific posted a photo of above.

[Tom King]

I always thought that "firmer" chisels were just cut out of bar stock or cast, while beveled edge chisels needed the bevel to be easier to get out of the dies that they were forged in.  I never heard that anywhere else, or thought about looking, so that's just my personal theory.

My timber framing chisels are firmers, and probably all of the fifty or more smaller chisels I have are beveled, except for some old blacksmith made W1 chisels.

The difference in use is not enough to make any kind of useful difference, unless for some special purpose like cleaning out blind dovetail sockets.

I bought some W1 drill rod a while back to make a pair of small skew chisels out of, but forgot to do it when we had the "forge" set up.