Pricing for lumber from "hobby" mills?

[bleedinblue]

I know of a few guys who have mills on the side.  I see the hobby mills as a bit of a gamble...some kiln dry, some air dry, some sell wet.  Bugs might be an issue if not kiln dried.  I haven't explored their pricing too much, but realize I won't be willing to pay the same as I would from Eric's place, where I trust.

With that said, I wouldn't mind stickering a few hundred BF in my basement for future use, even if it needs a year or longer to dry completely. 

How should I expect pricing to be though?  Is there a rule of thumb?  10% less than retail?  50% less than retail?

[bgreenb]

5 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

I know of a few guys who have mills on the side.  I see the hobby mills as a bit of a gamble...some kiln dry, some air dry, some sell wet.  Bugs might be an issue if not kiln dried.  I haven't explored their pricing too much, but realize I won't be willing to pay the same as I would from Eric's place, where I trust.

With that said, I wouldn't mind stickering a few hundred BF in my basement for future use, even if it needs a year or longer to dry completely. 

How should I expect pricing to be though?  Is there a rule of thumb?  10% less than retail?  50% less than retail?

JMO, I'd expect to pay 100% less than retail, and even then I'd be wary.

I know plenty of people have had great successes with hobby mill lumber, but to me the downside is just too great.  Having a project potentially ruined by improperly dried lumber, or (far far) worse, having an entire shop full of lumber ruined by a bug infestation....as a hobbyist, how many projects are you really doing per year?  Maybe 3 or 4?  Pony up for the nice kiln dried stock at U pick.  Plus you get some pleasant conversation and grabassin with the forum curmudgeon free with purchase.  What hobby mill can offer that?

All kidding aside, I wouldn't waste my time with hobby mills unless I truly had no other option nearby.

[bgreenb]

A few years ago I had an ash tree taken down on my property, and I seriously considered having it milled and then kiln dried (there is a nearby commercial kiln operation that will dry it for you).  Once I crunched the numbers, let's just say the economics of the proposition...weren't good.

Yeah, it would've been cool to say I made this project from a tree felled on my property...but instead I'll just head to Downes and Reader and buy premium ash stock for less money and hassle than having it milled and dried myself (nice when a corporation does all that capital investment for you)...and I can still say it came from a tree on my property without anyone knowing the difference

Even if the tree were walnut, the economics still wouldn't make sense.

[Guest]

"hobby" mill is a bit pejorative, I guess.  I'd differentiate between a bubba who saws some wood and a owner/operate with a proper dehumidification kiln.  

I do buy from an owner/operator mill.  It is a 3 person outfit: a husband and wife and an assistant.  

Here are his prices.  His lumber is all select and better (a grade down from FAS) and KD, but still very usuable for furniture.  I think one side needs to be FAS grade to make select and better.  His lumber is rough sawn, although he will surface for a small charge.  

ALWAYS consider grade when pricing material.  Most prices differences are explained by grade. Whenever I see people quoting extremely low prices, it is either for 1) ungraded lumber or 2) lumber of unknown origin.

If buying from a hobby or small mill, get yourself a moisture meter.

http://www.hickoryandoak.com/prices.php

 

 

[Eric.]

What these guys said ^^^.

If I were to consider buying some lumber from Cletus, I better have a pretty damn compelling reason to do so...it's gonna have to be some stunning stock.  Otherwise it's just not worth the gamble for the reasons Brian laid out.

As for pricing, it's impossible to give a number on that because it's gonna be a case-by-case basis.  Species, quality of wood and cut, whether or not it was properly stickered, stacked, dried.  I haven't spent much time looking at the offerings from most of these hobby mill guys, because - to be honest - it's usually complete garbage...from what I've seen.

[bleedinblue]

Fair enough.  I havent reached out to any of the guys I dont know personally, I guess I'll stear clear.

I have only bought from one guy I consider a hobbyist (though after seeing his mill and his shop, it's more accurate to say his day job is the hobby, lol)  He's a co-worker, woodworker and he does kiln dry his stock.  I got 100 bf of walnut from him for $3 a bf.  It was my first time buying rough lumber but 90% of it was fantastic quality...its what I built my daughter's crib from.  I'd buy from him again for those kinds of savings.

[Eric.]

13 minutes ago, bleedinblue said:

Fair enough.  I havent reached out to any of the guys I dont know personally, I guess I'll stear clear.

I have only bought from one guy I consider a hobbyist (though after seeing his mill and his shop, it's more accurate to say his day job is the hobby, lol)  He's a co-worker, woodworker and he does kiln dry his stock.  I got 100 bf of walnut from him for $3 a bf.  It was my first time buying rough lumber but 90% of it was fantastic quality...its what I built my daughter's crib from.  I'd buy from him again for those kinds of savings.

Well if you have a guy like that in your back pocket - and you've confirmed that it's decent material - there's no reason to steer clear.  Buy it up.  I don't really love rough material because it's tough to see exactly what you're buying*, but if the savings vs. lumberyard stock is significant enough, it might be worth the gamble.

*My favorite lumber is S2S skip planed.  That usually comes in at 15/16", so you're retaining most of the thickness of rough, but because it's planed you have a clearer picture of color and grain before you buy.  (Just like that Missouri cherry at the yard, Frank.)  Ideal.

[Guest]

This might be a captain obvious statement, but the quality of the lumber starts with the quality of the log.

You will get the highest quality logs from native species from a forest (not someone's back yard) because trees grow tall and straight when they are part of a dense native forest.  To get truly high quality lumber you want a tree that was competing for light, with a long, branch free trunk and a tall canopy. 

Lots of people fall in love with the idea of sawing up a backyard tree, but those trees typically have low branches (because it would look funny if you pruned your branches to expose a 16' trunk), resulting in all kinds of knots and irregular growth patterns.  

I get good stuff out of Michigan because all of these species we use for lumber (cherry, oak, walnut, hickory, hard maple) are native and compete in somewhat dense forests there.    

[Pwk5017]

I do make a couple purchases each year from cletus. 1) Price. You need to be 50-75% off retail for me to even reach out to you. Im not interested in saving $0.50 a bdft to have air dried wood that was cut at 1" and dried to 7/8" with the potential of bugs or surface checking from crap drying techniques. 2) unless its walnut heartwood, i never commingle cletus stock with my commercial stock. It isnt worth the risk to save $500 when i put $3,500 in jeopardy. 3) i dont rely on cletus lumber for projects that really count.  That is to say, if you commission me then im not using questionably sourced lumber on your project. I do not want issues with clients because i cut a corner and saved a few bucks on material costs. I also dont want to put 40 hours into a project using junk material. With those three rules in mind, i jump on CL buys from time to time. Im actually in the middle of one this week. It isnt a superb deal, but im buying a bunch of 8/4 and 16/4 white oak for 60% off retail. It is going to be used to build a table and benches similar to the guild project along with a gate for my fence. In this case, i dont care about bugs because they are outdoors projects, and frankly i dont care much about moisture either. Perfect use of cletus wood. I save a bundle of money and check two things off the home improvement/wife's wishlist using a great exterior hardwood. Last summer i bought 500ish bdft of walnut off an old timer that logged some of his property in the 80s. 4/4, 8/4, and 10/4 for $0.50 a bdft. In those instances, i dont care what your walnut looks like, im buying it. So far ive been really happy with the boards. They are on the thin side, and no they are not FAS, but im essentially working with walnut for free--actually, i am; i sold most of the thicker boards and made money on the whole deal while keeping a few hundred bdft of 4/4. Here's a recent project using cletus wood. It is going next to my armoire thing that was also cletus walnut. 

 

What you are talking about are small outfits that charge very close to retail, IME, and are not worth purchasing from. What i buy are forgotten lumber lots that have been collecting dust for a decade and people want them gone asap. 

[Cliff]

My experience is that you should be able to get everything but walnut for $1-4/bdft. For walnut it's regularly been around $5/bdft. Except for auction prices, then it was much much cheaper. These guys are not hardcore businessmen, I figure that I'll look at their lumber and negotiate based on the quality of their drying. I've bought some very wavy white oak for $1/bdft. I figure anything at $1 is worth it.

[Coop]

Blue, I have some walnut slabs that I cut down in Louisiana and hauled back to Houston and milled at $100 per hr. Then I stickered them off the ground using cinder blocks and wood strips.  I built a wood 1x4 frame over them, covered the top with corrugated metal and the sides with landscape fabric for rain protection and air circulation. That was 3 years ago and they ( the 6/4 ones) are just now dry enough to work with. It's damn pretty wood and kind of gratifying to know that I started from scratch, but the process to take them from slabs to 4/4 and 3/4, takes more time than the build itself. Knocking off the bark, trimming the sap wood off, hand planing it down to where I can get it into the 735 is time consuming. Am I glad I did it, yeah,maybe. Would I do it again, hell no! And, imo, I don't think you have enough air circulation in your basement to adequately dry it in a reasonably length of time. Eric probably gets all the good stuff, but even seconds would be better. 

[Pondhockey]

I agree with all the "it depends" comments, and will add two more:

- I am a hobbyist woodworker; I don't make a living at it.  For me, buying wood from the local guy is a fun adventure - so is chopping it down myself.

- I'm not making fine furniture - more like the disrespected "rustic" variety.  If you are turning, then you probably WANT some of the variety you get from the local guy.

OH, and to your actual question:  For the above uses, it better be very inexpensive.

[wtnhighlander]

 

My cletus wood experience has been varied. I've purchased walnut @ $0.75/bf up to $1.25/bf. It can't be graded as #1, by any means, but there is enough to build a project or three.

 

 

If I had any real choice, I wouldn't bother. Unfortunately, there is apparently no hardwood dealer of any kind, less than 2 hours drive from me.

 

 

[CandorLush]

I was just asking Matt Cremona about selling green wood and he mentioned doing the exact thing you're asking about and said that it was priced from $1-$2/bf - roughly half to a third the price it would be if it were dried.

[Pwk5017]

1 hour ago, CandorLush said:

I was just asking Matt Cremona about selling green wood and he mentioned doing the exact thing you're asking about and said that it was priced from $1-$2/bf - roughly half to a third the price it would be if it were dried.

Green lumber is sort of a different ball game. You are buying an unfinished product and should automatically be paying on an alternate price structure. There is an amish mill in ohio that sells green timber and then a guy north of pittsburgh that saws in the summer and sells green lumber. In both cases, we are talking $0.25-.75 a bdft. I cant imagine paying dollars per bdft for green lumber, that seems nonsensical to me. 

We all need to study Cremona's drying methods. He makes it seem like his basement dries 4/4 in weeks, not months/years. 

[Eric.]

8 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

$0.25-.75 a bdft. I cant imagine paying dollars per bdft for green lumber, that seems nonsensical to me.

Agreed.  You're doing half the work and all the waiting.  Plus there's bugs to worry about.  If someone came to me with a perfect full log of walnut or cherry and milled it well (and I had the space to store it stickered and stacked in an indoor environment), I'd consider it.  It better be some extremely nice material though.

[CandorLush]

22 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

Green lumber is sort of a different ball game. You are buying an unfinished product and should automatically be paying on an alternate price structure. There is an amish mill in ohio that sells green timber and then a guy north of pittsburgh that saws in the summer and sells green lumber. In both cases, we are talking $0.25-.75 a bdft. I cant imagine paying dollars per bdft for green lumber, that seems nonsensical to me. 

We all need to study Cremona's drying methods. He makes it seem like his basement dries 4/4 in weeks, not months/years. 

High number of household heating days, no ground moisture seeping in and added fans means he has most of a dehumidification kiln down there

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, CandorLush said:

High number of household heating days, no ground moisture seeping in and added fans means he has most of a dehumidification kiln down there

Yeah, but did you see the shape of those boards he used for the rustic farmhouse table thing.  That stuff will continue to move.  No thanks.    I would not trust any of his lumber.  

 

[MatthewCremona]

49 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

We all need to study Cremona's drying methods. He makes it seem like his basement dries 4/4 in weeks, not months/years. 

My basement is capable of drying 4/4 in probably 4 weeks but I'll never dry lumber that fast.  Too much stress builds up in the lumber and as the primary user of the lumber, that's something that I care about.  I shoot for 10-12 weeks for 4/4.  I intentionally limit natural airflow so I can control and slow the drying time.  But yeah, as Carl said, it's essentially a dehumidification kiln.

[Tom Cancelleri]

I bought lumber from a guy that had cut down cherry and walnut trees on his property in Maryland. He had someone come slab up all the material and had over 4000 BF of each sitting in his parent's basement air drying for 25 years. I've worked a bunch of the material and it was clean, some of the best color with ribbons of purple and silver I've ever seen in walnut, and the deepest color cherry I've ever seen. Great stock, no stress issues in the wood. 25 years to air dry 8/4 though is more than enough. 

[wtnhighlander]

I bought lumber from a guy that had cut down cherry and walnut trees on his property in Maryland. He had someone come slab up all the material and had over 4000 BF of each sitting in his parent's basement air drying for 25 years. I've worked a bunch of the material and it was clean, some of the best color with ribbons of purple and silver I've ever seen in walnut, and the deepest color cherry I've ever seen. Great stock, no stress issues in the wood. 25 years to air dry 8/4 though is more than enough. 

Does he have any left?

[Coop]

54 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

Does he have any left? 

Years or lumber?

[bleedinblue]

I checked with the guy I work with on what he has in stock and what he charges.  $2 a bf for hard maple and ash and $2.50 a bf for cherry and walnut.  That includes 8/4 I'm pretty sure.  I'll still frequent Eric's place, but I've been stupid not reaching out to this guy sooner...

[Coop]

Blue, go for it but keep in mind that 8/4 is twice the price of 4/4 per bft and as Eric pointed out to me, unless you want a thick table top, it's good for leg stock. And as fast as the years pass now, it will be dry before you know it!

[bleedinblue]

This is all kiln dried, he's got a couple of solar kilns.  I'm going to control how much 8/4 I get but I'm going to build the Morris chair this summer, so I need some anyway.  I'll also need to build a proper workbench sooner rather than later, too, so this would be perfect for that.