Sharpening Bleedingblue's plane iron

[Tom King]

 

In discussion in another thread, I offered to sharpen his plane iron for him if he shipped it to me.   When it arrived, the edge felt fairly sharp, so the first thing I did was put it in my Stanley no. 4, and took a few shavings.  It was useable, but left tiny ridges on the surface of the board, and was unusually hard to push.

The pictures will show some of the problems I found.   First, the bevel was Way too shallow.  It was a little more than 20 degrees, but less than 25, as you can seen in the picture with it under my 25 degree jig.

The second problem was that there was a dip in the center inch of the cutting edge.   I don't know how this could have been formed unless whatever the sharpening stones were "flattened" on was not flat, and left a raised center on the sharpening stones.   I use Atoma diamond sheets on a granite surface plate that is flat to .001mm, so know that my stones are flat.  If you look close, in the third picture, after I had started the sharpening, you might be able to see two wider parts of the new bevel in from each edge.

I started honing on my 400 stone, kept going on it until the edge was straightened out.   At first swarf was only left about 1/3 in from both corners of the iron.

It  sharpened right up, and first I tested it on a scrap of Poplar.  I could cut see through shavings while the iron was still in the jig, but the see through part was canceled out by the flash.  

I put it back in my no. 4, and did a little test planing with it.   I was able to show the see through by holding a shaving up with a North window in the background.

I don't know what kind of steel this is, but I expect A2.   I thinks Hans trouble was simply that the bevel was too fine for A2, and maybe stone not perfectly flat too, but the main problem i believe is the A2 edge was breaking down at this angle.  My first test planing, before I started work on the edge, left tiny little raised lines on the wood, like you see when a planer knife has a nick in it, only the raised lines were many times smaller.  Even though the edge felt sharp, and would slice wood, I think these lines were left from the steel crumbling at 20 degrees.

I had honed the new bevel at 27 degrees, just because that's what I use with my bench plane irons, but after I had finished, and thought that it was A2,  I wished that I had honed it at 30 or higher.  My test planing after my sharpening left the board surface nice and smooth though, and I'm pretty sure that Hans can take it from here, so I sent it back.

I don't use micro-bevels, or back bevels, but there's not harm if you need to in order to get to a sharp edge.

My personal preference for plane irons is 01.  Even with these see-through shavings, the plane was noticeably harder to push than with the stock iron in it, and just simply didn't feel as sharp as I like to get my cutting edges.  It is still usable, but just doesn't suit my senses the best.

Hans, if this is an A2 iron, I'd go up the a 30 degree bevel next time if it starts leaving tiny lines at the 27 degree bevel.

[bleedinblue]

Awesome, I can't wait to try it out!  Your diagnosis makes perfect sense.  I knew it was sharp but still not right.

I'm surprised the angle was so shallow.  I found my Veritas angle setup jig is a total piece of crap, so I just tried to set the iron in the sharpening jig based on the angle the previous owner used.  The next time I'm in the shop I'll build a jig of my own based on yours.  I need to take the guesswork out of it.

My stones are all Norton's.  I have a 220/1000 and a 4000 that I bought new, and I have a 220/1000 and a 4000/8000 that I bought on Ebay "slightly used."  I used the "used" stones on this iron and I did struggle to keep them flat during the whole process.  The stones I bought new aren't like that, I don't know what the problem is with the used stones.  I scrubbed the hell out of them, using a Norton flattening stone, very often while sharpening this iron.  It was a lot more of a struggle than it should have been, and they are obviously still not flat.  The stones I bought new are very easy to keep flat with the same method, I'm puzzled.

I'm going to step up to diamond stones at the next opportunity to avoid that problem.  I don't think I am overestimating by saying half the time I spent sharpening that iron was spent trying to keep the stones flat.

I assume the blade is A2, I think that's LN's steel of choice.

[Tom King]

I didn't remember what brand of plane it was, or if you ever said what brand.

Those Norton stones are plenty good enough.   I used them for probably a decade before I upgraded to the much faster cutting Sigma stones.  The 4k, and 8k stones, when I was using them, were flattened on a Granite Surface plate with silicon carbide sandpaper for quite a number of years.  I have heard complaints about the Norton flattening stone, but have never held on in my hand, so can't offer an opinion, but I expect it has something to do with your flatness issue.

Once you get the Norton stones flat, they should sharpen that iron just fine for several times before needing to be flattened again.

I bought the surface plate from Woodcraft on sale, and liked it so much that I bought another one, but they were twenty five bucks then, and I expect have gone up some since then.

That iron did not lessen my dislike for A2 any at all.   I was pleased to see that the Sigma stones still cut it really fast, but I never feel like I can get A2 really sharp.   My planes, sharpened as sharp as I like to get them, are almost effortless to push.  When I feel like it's time to resharpen a plane iron, I never need to go back below the 6k stone, which is where a lot of people stop.  Yeah, you can plane see-through shavings with A2, but I will never get used to the feel.  The only LN plane I have is a hinge mortising plane, and I won't be buying another if the only option is A2.

I wish I had known that it was A2 to start with, and if so, I would have reground it for you, and put a steeper than 27 degree bevel on it.  Letting a steeper sharpened bevel gradually take over the 20 degree bevel won't hurt a thing, so I wouldn't worry about trying to regrind it now.

I made those setting gauges a long time ago, real quick one morning, thinking I would make some "permanent" ones later, if I liked them, out of Corian, but so far haven't had a reason to make "better" ones.  There is no fumbling involved-just grab and go, and no cost to amount to anything.  I posted a thread about them a while back.  The angle arm needs to be short enough to allow setting any sharpening jig you use.

I sharpen by feel, and never worry about whether there is a burr or not.  Diamond stones don't give any feel at all, so I can never recommend them.

[Marmotjr]

Good read.  I learned something here.

But my first reaction to the photos was "Is that a golf bag?"   Which is weird, cause I keep my clubs next to my HCM also. 

[bleedinblue]

I checked my Norton flattening stone and of course it isn't flat.  Such a stupid part of the equation that I should have thought of.  I assumed it was flat because it has been used relatively little.  Thumbs down for that stone.  I'll flatten it with glass and sandpaper, but if it continues to go out of flat so easily I'll chose another option for flattening the waterstones. 

[Eric.]

https://www.amazon.com/DMT-Diamond-Machining-Technology-DIAFLAT/dp/B005FUHTDG

 

[Woodenskye]

The granite plate is currently on sale at woodcraft.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/granite-surface-plate-9-x-12-x-2-a-grade

[Tom King]

1 hour ago, Marmotjr said:

Good read.  I learned something here.

But my first reaction to the photos was "Is that a golf bag?"   Which is weird, cause I keep my clubs next to my HCM also. 

Yeah, that's a golf bag.  I work on golf clubs too, but those are my clubs that are not normally in there.....but that's another long story.

[Tom King]

36 minutes ago, Woodenskye said:

The granite plate is currently on sale at woodcraft.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/granite-surface-plate-9-x-12-x-2-a-grade

I'm surprised they haven't gone up much in price.   I have a DMT x-coarse plate that I used to use for coarse grinding when I didn't want to run a grinder.  It developed a bump on it that I can't figure out why, so it's just stashed away somewhere.

 I already had the granite plates from when I used sandpaper for the Norton stones, and ordered replacement Atoma sheets from Tools from Japan that are stuck on one of the surface plates now.  They are four or five years old, and still just like they were when I bought them.  I have a 120 on one side, a 400 (for finer stones) on the other side of the plate, and the stone holder is used between them under running water.  I have another one of those granite plates that I cut in two, and keep .5 and .1 micron Diamond Lapping Film on for final finish.   The lapping film lasts me over a year, so it's not a terrible expense.

I'm able to leave this setup ready to go all the time.   It's too heavy and awkward if you had to drag it out to use it, and then put it away.

[Unknown craftsman]

Most of my plane irons are A2 and it's not my favorite steel to sharpen .I don't bother working the whole bevel I hollow grind as the grind shrinks away back to the grinder.

I use Shapton pro stones and they are slow to cut away A2.I wish LN would offer something like Pm steel.I tried O1 and found it too soft for the woods I work.

 I can't be the only one that hollow grinds.

Aj

[Tom King]

Yeah, the wood you work makes a difference.  I rarely work with anything but Heart Pine, Cypress, White Oak, and Walnut, so 01 suits me just fine.  Not much White Oak-just window and door sills, and Walnut for furniture repair, or reproduction of one piece of furniture, so not that much Walnut either.  I do very little sanding, if I can help it.  I typically only need to resharpen after a half days work, so if I'm working all day with a plane, I'll sharpen when we get back from lunch, and first thing in the morning.  I do find that the sharper I get it to start with, the longer it will last until it needs honing again.

Any time I do any grinding, it's hollow ground, but not for any other reason than my grinder has a round wheel.  I only grind if the edge gets damaged, and otherwise, the honing bevel takes over the whole cutter bevel.  I doubt any of my smoothing planes have had any grinding remnants on the bevel for a LONG time.  I'm usually set up in a museum house, and don't want to grind metal inside, so any grinding has to be taken outside, which is just time wasted for me.

[Ronn W]

For God's sake, you don't need to spend any money on a flat piece of granite.  I went a local place where they make counter tops and asked if I could go dumpster diving.  Flat and free granite pieces in a variety of colors to accessorize you sharpening wardrobe.  Sorry, I got carried away!

[Pondhockey]

2 hours ago, Ronn W said:

For God's sake, you don't need to spend any money on a flat piece of granite.  I went a local place where they make counter tops and asked if I could go dumpster diving.  Flat and free granite pieces in a variety of colors to accessorize you sharpening wardrobe.  Sorry, I got carried away!

Thanks for chiming in!!  I wondered about this.

I've been using adhesive backed paper on a jointed 2x6.  (I also have access to granite slab pieces, and considered using them.  Not sure how flat they really are.)

So how flat do we really need?

[bleedinblue]

I have a large piece of thick glass that was once the base for an LCD TV that I paste sandpaper on.  It's a little too large to be practical though, and I am absolutely positive one day I will be picking it up in pieces off my floor.  But for now, it's a perfectly flat surface.

[Ronn W]

1 hour ago, Pondhockey said:

So how flat do we really need?

Good question.  I would say "pretty darn flat" but really don't know the answer. A countertop piece that has been ground smooth is "pretty darn flat" enough for me. My cast iron table saw top is not perfect but it would also be "pretty darn flat" enough for me to but not as "pretty darn flat" as the granite.  I think I'll stop there before this gets out of hand.

[Pondhockey]

1 hour ago, Ronn W said:

Good question.  I would say "pretty darn flat" but really don't know the answer. A countertop piece that has been ground smooth is "pretty darn flat" enough for me. My cast iron table saw top is not perfect but it would also be "pretty darn flat" enough for me to but not as "pretty darn flat" as the granite.  I think I'll stop there before this gets out of hand.

Well, being from Eden Prairie and all, you probably have a good feel for "pretty darn flat". ;-)

[Tom King]

Before I splurged on the surface plate, I had a sharpening bench that the whole top was from a granite countertop that I even flattened the soles of my planes on.  After using it for a long timed, I finally put a straight edge on it, and could see light under several places.  It was still shiny all over the top, so it didn't get the hills and valleys from my use.  

I just got tired of wondering how flat was flat enough, and splurged the twenty five bucks on a surface plate that is flat to .001 MM.   It not only is truly flat, but when I was using sandpaper, all you had to do was put some water on it, and the little bit of texture it has holds the sandpaper like it has a good suction on it, so you don't have to mess with adhesive sandpaper, and can choose any kind you want.

I liked it so much, that I ordered the Atoma film from Stuart, and bought another plate, the next time they went on sale, for other uses.

I'm all for not spending money you don't need to on woodworking stuff, even though I get to deduct every penny I spend on tools, but this was a well spent fifty bucks for me.

I switched from the flat topped sharpening bench to a sink, which eliminates any mess and cleanup time for sharpening, and the sink is handy to have anyway.

[Chris208]

The Norton flattening stone is rubbish. 

Go buy a course diamond plate for flattening the stones.  It's also useful for regrinding bevels.  When I do this, I find that switching between my diamond stone, and my 1000 waterstone makes regrinding go much more quickly.

I have no idea why.  Totally counter-intuitive.

[Eric.]

When it comes to sharpening you need absolutely flat, not pretty close.  It's not wood.  I would not trust a piece of granite I pulled out of a dumpster.  Those DMT lapping plates are +/-0.0005...ain't no way any piece of granite is that flat.

[bleedinblue]

Indeed.  I think this thread and the issues with my iron showed exactly why the surface must be perfectly flat.  Checking my stones with a straight edge, they ARE "pretty flat."  My Norton flattening stone IS "pretty flat."  "Pretty flat," combined with a shallow bevel angle, left me with a very sharp premium smoothing plane that just didn't smooth very well. 

[Ronn W]

OK, OK. So I decided to actually check my little free piece of granite and, maybe I was just "pretty darn lucky," but it is flat, not just "pretty darn flat."

[Pondhockey]

Many thanks to Blue and Ronn.  It helps to know the "facts".  

Short of an engineering study, the various facts and opinions, and the not so expensive availability of "really flat" granite surfaces seem to suggest the advisability of having something like that!!

 

[bleedinblue]

As a bit of an update, I received the iron back from Tom a few days ago.  I haven't had a chance to much with it yet, just a couple swipes of 6/4 cherry.  Very thin shavings, but the most noticeable difference is the ease of the stroke.  I'll give it a workout soon, my current project is wrapping up and I'll try to use the smoother to save a whole bunch of sanding, you know, as a smoother is meant to. 

I picked up an extra-coarse DMT plate today.  It's a half measure from the lapping plate for sure, actually not even  a third measure since it was just $53.  A lot seem to have success flattening stones with this plate so I thought it worth a try. 

I'll add more results as I get them. 

[MattF]

On 7/7/2017 at 5:31 AM, Eric. said:

When it comes to sharpening you need absolutely flat, not pretty close.  It's not wood.  I would not trust a piece of granite I pulled out of a dumpster.  Those DMT lapping plates are +/-0.0005...ain't no way any piece of granite is that flat.

I wouldn't trust a piece out of the trash either. Granite can be extremely flat, but damn pricey. We have a couple of Starrett granite inspection surfaces, Laboratory Grade AA, at work that have a flatness measurement of .00005" across the whole surface. They are 36" x 36" x 6". A little overkill for a wood shop. 

[Tom King]

I didn't spend much time on it when I saw what the issues were, and that you had been able to put a servicably sharp edge on it otherwise.  The right corner was rounded up more than I would have it on a smoother, and I don't remember if I eased up the left corner or not.  I figured you could take it from there.

That X coarse plate would be good to change the bevel to 30 degrees, if it starts to break down at 27.   I don't do much with A2, but I think 30 is recommended.   I wouldn't bother to regrind the whole bevel-just the cutting edge bevel should be fine.

One of my 9x12, 25 buck plates from Woodcraft is flat to .001mm.   I didn't bother to calculate what that was in inches, but it should be plenty flat.  The second one I bought was not quite that flat, but close-don't remember exactly.   I liked them so much that when a deal came along on an 18x24, I grabbed it, and have used it for plane bottoms on the larger planes.  It had been "damaged" in shipping, which was two of the sharp corners rubbed a bit, but is an AA grade for fifty bucks, still new in the wooden shipping box at some auction I went to.  I don't remember the brand, but it isn't a Starret because it's black.