Keggers Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 I went out to the shop this morning looking forward to a busy day of surfacing wood. When I hit the remote for my cyclone I saw a bright flash of light up towards the ceiling. The power cable from my cyclone that attaches to the power cable drop from the ceiling was on fire. The cyclone only ran for a few seconds and then shut down. I quickly flipped the breaker and am now waiting for a return call from my electrician. I was surprised that the breaker hadn't tripped. I'm hoping that it is only a bad plug and nothing to do with the motor. Not being an electrician - I don't know if plugs go bad while just hanging or not. I guess time will tell. I don't mind saying that when I saw the fire it scared the crap out of me. I hope everyone else's day goes better than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfitz Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Yikes! hope it's nothing major. Keep us posted...hope the cyclone is undamaged... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Yikes that should be fixable. I'd ask the electrician to check the breaker somehow as well. I clicked order on the festool recon for the TSC55 didn't realize it didn't come with batteries or a charger till after i got the confirmation email. Now what i thought was a smoking good deal is just an ok deal. The batteries i ordered are out of stock too. BAH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keggers Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, Chestnut said: Yikes that should be fixable. I'd ask the electrician to check the breaker somehow as well. I clicked order on the festool recon for the TSC55 didn't realize it didn't come with batteries or a charger till after i got the confirmation email. Now what i thought was a smoking good deal is just an ok deal. The batteries i ordered are out of stock too. BAH! That's good advice. I'll have him check it. It's nice when your wife works for a construction company and the electricians are a bargain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkinneb Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 It would have scared the crap out of me as well, hopefully it's nothing major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Thats definitely starting the day on the wrong foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 I"d like to see pictures of the problem spot, once it's found. I don't have any idea if it has anything to do with this or not: When I wire a connector with stranded wire, I harden the end that's going to be tightened under a lug with rosin core solder. I don't know why, but I've had plugs get hot before where I had just twisted the wire, and then tightened the lug. SInce I started hardening the ends, I've never had the first problem with one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keggers Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 I took pictures using my phone - not sure how to get them from my phone to my computer. I'll try to take more with my camera and post them. I have talked to my electrician and he'll be out this evening to work on it. He suggested that I get a new both ends of the plug. He was also concerned that the breaker didn't trip. I sent him pictures of the damage and of the breaker. He said I had plenty of breaker but he's going to check it out. More later..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Keggers said: I took pictures using my phone - not sure how to get them from my phone to my computer. I'll try to take more with my camera and post them. I have talked to my electrician and he'll be out this evening to work on it. He suggested that I get a new both ends of the plug. He was also concerned that the breaker didn't trip. I sent him pictures of the damage and of the breaker. He said I had plenty of breaker but he's going to check it out. More later..... I emial pictures to myself from my phone. If you have an old school flip phone that's a bit more tricky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keggers Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Here's a picture of the damaged plug and the wire that was burning. My electrician will be out this evening to check things out. You can see the burn on the middle white part and the burnt wire. I'd say I was lucky it wasn't worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Scary stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Why do you need an electrician to take the plugs apart? That's what I was talking about earlier. I've had them do that too, and it was always because of a loose connection under one of the lugs inside. If you can take them apart, and take pictures, I'll tell what we are looking at, and maybe a few others might learn something in the process. There is a good way to assemble them, and a fast and cheap way. Guess which way causes problems like this. Those are good quality connectors, so it's not a fault of the connector. Turn the power off on that circuit, and disconnect the plugs. There are some screws on the faces, where the blades, or slots are. Back those out. They don't come all the way out, but will release the faces from the body. Loosen the two screws on the strain relief, and the body can then be pulled back away from the face, exposing the connection points. Do that part, and take pictures. What we want to see is what it looks like where the wires are under the lugs. The plastic will be melted away some from the problem ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 It is not that uncommon to have a failure at a cord end, but it's not usually that dramatic. All it takes is for a lug to loosen up or the wire strands to fatigue & break. That kind of event won't trip a conventional breaker because there is no over current condition. Arc fault breakers will trip out though & that's why they're now mandatory for most receptacle circuits (in Canada at least). This is a receptacle that was terminated using the push-in connectors. They have a habit of turning into a high resistance connection. We've fixed many dozens of these over the years, but this is one of the worst examples so I kept it. An no, we don't do it that way & neither should anyone else. I bet you'll find your connector looks similar. Another possibility is that the wires actually short circuited due to worn insulation or loose wires, but the arcing vaporized the shorting copper. That can happen so fast that the breaker doesn't have time to trip. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keggers Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 I'm having an electrician come out just in case there is another problem other than the plug. I imagine it's just the plug and have bought new ones, but just in case there is some other problem he'll be here. I've attached 220 plugs several times and know how to do that. I'm just being cautious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 40 minutes ago, Tom King said: Why do you need an electrician to take the plugs apart? I think it is a good move to have the electrician come out to make sure there aren't any other problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkinneb Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 Understood but take pics none the less inquiring minds want to know/see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keggers Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 11 minutes ago, pkinneb said: Understood but take pics none the less inquiring minds want to know/see Will do. Have camera ready. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 If you want to install the new ones to give the best chance for no more problems like that, let me know. I didn't know much about plumbing, or electrical work when I took the licensing tests in 1975, even though I got a perfect score on each, but have picked up a few things since then. Don't throw the old plugs out. I have a good use you can put them to- for learning how tight is tight enough, and how tight is too tight, for the lug screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 I am a fan of P&S ( pass & seymore) or Hubble electrical cord ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Keggers Posted March 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 The verdict is in.......bad plug. Everything else checked out okay. Cyclone started like it was new after replacing the plug. I swapped the electrical work for a cypress bluebird house. Everyone happy! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkinneb Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Keggers said: The verdict is in.......bad plug. Everything else checked out okay. Cyclone started like it was new after replacing the plug. I swapped the electrical work for a cypress bluebird house. Everyone happy! Wow! Did they know why? Thanks for sharing and glad you got it fixed easy enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keggers Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 The electrician said it could have been caused by vibration or by the plug heating and cooling thus loosening one of the screws. He was talking "electrician language" so I might have missed something. All I know is it works and I'm a happy camper once again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 That looks like a Hubbell to me. It wasn't simply a bad plug, but a bad connection on that plug. It's the same sort of poor connection that caused the issue with the receptacle that drzaius posted, although that receptacle was a poorly designed device to start with because of giving way to fast, and cheap. Proper torque is very important on the screws, as is meticulous preparation of the wire ends. Proper torque, in this case, is only learned by developing a feel for it. Just as fasteners used when assembling an engine, the bolt, or machine screw needs to be stretched a tiny bit to stay in place. That's the plug on the machine, so pretty obviously a half-assed job wherever it was assembled. It looks like one of the conductors burned completely in two, so it's possible there was a wild strand on the hot wire that touched the ground wire. For that type of plug, which I have quite a few of, I always harden the end of the stranded wires with rosin core solder, since having the same sort of trouble after learning the hard way when I first started. I've never had an overheated plug since hardening the ends. What seems like it's tight on stranded wire can come back and bite you later, especially if it's a cord that gets moved around a lot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 Looking closely, it appears there is a strand or two of copper still attached from the wire that seems to be burnt through. My guess would be that the wire ends were not tinned with solder, as Tom suggested, and that the clamping plate under the screw only captured a portion of the strands during original assembly. This situation would leave the connection with a higher resistance than the other connections in the plug, and cause a 'hot spot'. The heat causes the current-carrying strands to fatigue over time, and eventually the strands start seperating, until the conductive path is too small to carry the load, it burns completely through, and you get an arc flash that melts the screw and plastic. I bet if that remaining strand was tested with an ohmmeter, it makes no electrical contact with the lug. The start-up current of an AC motor can easily be ten or more times the operating current. That's why the catastrophic failures happen most often on startup. "But it was running fine when I shut it off last night!!!" Is a common complaint. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkinneb Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 Good info guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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