A_Vitale Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 As the title states, should I use 4'' or 6'' PVC to run my DC in my new shop. If I use the 6'' I will have it split to 4'' and 2.5'' for my Router table and bandsaw.The runs will be around 10'-14 with 2 45 degree elbows and plan to close all blast gates while each machine is used. Also on another note has anyone had luck hanging PVC on drop ceiling?? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsiard Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 You should use the largest diameter duct your collector can handle, in this case it would be 6". You would need to extend strapping through the drop ceiling attaching directly to a structural member to support the load. Hope this helps Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattvan Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 You should use the largest diameter duct your collector can handle, in this case it would be 6". You would need to extend strapping through the drop ceiling attaching directly to a structural member to support the load. Hope this helps Jim I'm about to undergo something very similar myself, so this post is extremely timely! I just brought a new ShopFox 1.5HP DC into my shop and it's powerful enough to allow me to keep it one corner that doesn't have to be right next to the tools like my old model. I'm planning on running solid duct work up the wall, across the room, then dropping down near the tools. My joists are exposed so attachment isn't an issue, but I am concerned about potential noise. I'm guessing if I add a strap every joist or every other joist that could help keep it secure enough it won't rattle too much as shavings and chips fly through it. The other issue is grounding the ducts. Even if I used flexible hose or metal I'd still want to ground, but do I run it THROUGH the duct or AROUND the outside? Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsiard Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm about to undergo something very similar myself, so this post is extremely timely! I just brought a new ShopFox 1.5HP DC into my shop and it's powerful enough to allow me to keep it one corner that doesn't have to be right next to the tools like my old model. I'm planning on running solid duct work up the wall, across the room, then dropping down near the tools. My joists are exposed so attachment isn't an issue, but I am concerned about potential noise. I'm guessing if I add a strap every joist or every other joist that could help keep it secure enough it won't rattle too much as shavings and chips fly through it. The other issue is grounding the ducts. Even if I used flexible hose or metal I'd still want to ground, but do I run it THROUGH the duct or AROUND the outside? Any ideas? Matt, If you are using metal ducting it will or should be grounded through the collector providing there are no breaks in the line ie.plastic blast gates. I use the wire reinforced hose for tool attachments and attach the wire ends to the pipe and tool. With pvc you will need to add a grounding wire, there are a few ways to achieve this; conventional applications have the wire wrapped around the pipe along its entire length. On my last system I ran a wire along the length and taped it to the pipe with foil tape, that seemed to work just as well. I have heard and read were the wire was run internally, I'm not to keen on the idea of poking holes in the pipe when the whole idea is to create an air tight environment, but thats just me. I now have a metal ducted system which I prefer for a number of reasons, installation was much easier, no primer and glue to mess with and when I decided on a design change after the system was installed I simply drilled out the rivets and was able to reuse both pipe and fitting. Weight was a big issue as I installed with no assistance, the pipe is truly a smooth bore as opposed to pvc and the long sweeps wreak less havoc with air flow than the tight 90's of pvc. When all was said and done there was no real difference in cost which was a real surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattvan Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Thanks for the feedback. 1 more question if you don't mind? I think I might have missed it, but did you use just HVAC metal ducting from the big box stores or special order from someplace like Penn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Thanks for the feedback. 1 more question if you don't mind? I think I might have missed it, but did you use just HVAC metal ducting from the big box stores or special order from someplace like Penn? Yea, it can go on the outside, as that is where you would feel the static charge and it only needs to be a straight run, not wound around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Thanks for the feedback. 1 more question if you don't mind? I think I might have missed it, but did you use just HVAC metal ducting from the big box stores or special order from someplace like Penn? Matt, I got some of mine from a HVAC wholesale warehouse. Call around and ask if you can buy direct from them. Some will go for it. The industrial HVAC will be a thicker gauge than the home HVAC material. I can email you a pdf from Oneida that will give you a good idea of the stages for stepping down size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattvan Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Yeah that would be great, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brtech Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Read through Bill Penz' site: http://billpentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/Index.cfm tons of really, really good stuff there. While you need pressure, you need CFM more. Hard to know for certain, but I think a 1.5HP blower can't push enough CFM through 6". Bill would say that 6" is the minimum size you need, but he would also say you want a 5HP blower. You might want to try to use a 5" main with 4" drops. 5" is uncommon, so that may be better in theory than in practice. If you use metal, you want 26 ga or thicker. The length of the main is important. If you can put the DC in the middle of your shop, the length of the main is 1/2 what it would be if it's at the end. 45s and blast gates you know about. Grounding is not needed for safety, despite claims to the contrary, the engineering says there is no problem, but you can get a nasty zap. But, more than anything you need to upgrade the filter to a .5 micron canister. Look at Wynn Engineering. If you don't do that, wear a respirator at all times you are running your machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattvan Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Bill Penz' site...I couldn't remember his name. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWC Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 As the title states, should I use 4'' or 6'' PVC to run my DC in my new shop. If I use the 6'' I will have it split to 4'' and 2.5'' for my Router table and bandsaw.The runs will be around 10'-14 with 2 45 degree elbows and plan to close all blast gates while each machine is used. Also on another note has anyone had luck hanging PVC on drop ceiling?? Thanks! What is the inlet size on the machine itself and what is the CFM of the unit. If you answer those two questions, I can better answer your question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimV Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I have a Penn State 1-1/2 hp bag collector. I have a 6" main and 12 - 4" branches. The 6" line extends a total length of about 35'. The 4" drops extend anywhere from right off the wye to about 12'. It is all out of DWV (drain, waste, vent) pvc. This is the thinner gauge pvc and much more affordable than the pressure sized pvc. I purchased all the fittings and pipe at HD or Lowes. 6" to 4" Wye's are used off the main with 45's used as much as possible in place of 90's. Some 4" 90's in unavoidable spots are used. Every drop has a gate, with most of them being the metal type. Each of the machines are connected to the 4" pvc via 4" flex hose. I do have a 6" belt/disc sander ported down to 2-1/2" and I have one down to 1-1/2" to connect to my ROS. I only run one machine in my shop at a time so I only have one gate open at a time. I've had the system installed for about 10 years without any issues what-so-ever. I did not glue any of the joints, they are all sealed with aluminum tape. This made it easier to reconfigure as I added machines/drops. The whole system works extraordinarily well. A few days ago, Bucey saw my system and was inspired to pipe in his dc. I did a cam tour of my piping system for him and then he cammed his installation. We talked live about his concerns during his installation, it was really cool. There a post about that. DC Piping Video Feed Post. Let me know and I could do it again and record it for you or Matt. To answer your orginal question, you will do good to use 6" main and port it down as necessary, using one machine at a time. No experience with installing in a drop ceiling, mine is an unfinished ceiling section of the basement. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azsteve Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 Any chance you could post some photos of your set-up? I have a 2.5 hp PennState bag collector that I'm sure could be set up more efficiently. Do you use a trash can cyclone attachment in your system by chance? Steve I have a Penn State 1-1/2 hp bag collector. I have a 6" main and 12 - 4" branches. The 6" line extends a total length of about 35'. The 4" drops extend anywhere from right off the wye to about 12'. It is all out of DWV (drain, waste, vent) pvc. This is the thinner gauge pvc and much more affordable than the pressure sized pvc. I purchased all the fittings and pipe at HD or Lowes. 6" to 4" Wye's are used off the main with 45's used as much as possible in place of 90's. Some 4" 90's in unavoidable spots are used. Every drop has a gate, with most of them being the metal type. Each of the machines are connected to the 4" pvc via 4" flex hose. I do have a 6" belt/disc sander ported down to 2-1/2" and I have one down to 1-1/2" to connect to my ROS. I only run one machine in my shop at a time so I only have one gate open at a time. I've had the system installed for about 10 years without any issues what-so-ever. I did not glue any of the joints, they are all sealed with aluminum tape. This made it easier to reconfigure as I added machines/drops. The whole system works extraordinarily well. A few days ago, Bucey saw my system and was inspired to pipe in his dc. I did a cam tour of my piping system for him and then he cammed his installation. We talked live about his concerns during his installation, it was really cool. There a post about that. DC Piping Video Feed Post. Let me know and I could do it again and record it for you or Matt. To answer your orginal question, you will do good to use 6" main and port it down as necessary, using one machine at a time. No experience with installing in a drop ceiling, mine is an unfinished ceiling section of the basement. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombarde16 Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) +1 on Bill's page. It's both informative and readable and invaluable for setting up a home DC rig. While you need pressure, you need CFM more. Close. Cubic feet per minute is a function of the motor power. How much air can it move from point A to point B in a given span of time? Sizing the ducts larger or smaller affects the speed of the air/dust mixture that's moving through them. Given a constant CFM, the air will move faster in a narrow duct and slower in a wide duct. The trick is that the air has to maintain a minimum speed in order to carry dust all the way from your tools into the bag. Otherwise, the dust settles out and collects in the pipes, usually wherever it makes a bend. EDIT: Following up, Bill Pentz links to another article by Rod Cole, someone at MIT who completely debunks the notion of grounding PVC to avoid static discharges. http://home.comcast.net/~rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.html Edited March 20, 2011 by Rob Horton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimV Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Any chance you could post some photos of your set-up? I have a 2.5 hp PennState bag collector that I'm sure could be set up more efficiently. Do you use a trash can cyclone attachment in your system by chance? Steve Hi Steve, sorry I didn't get back sooner (in Disney with the family last week). Sure! I'll post some pictures this evening for you. No, I don't use a trash can cyclone. I just fill up the lower bag and empty as necessary. Tim Edit: Here's a couple photos. The first is the 6" pipe going into the DC and the second is the 6" pipe exiting the closet and "y'ing" down to a 4" for the drill press. The 6" continues to the right into a series of 45's to make a turn perpendicular (towards you in the photo). It then gets branched off into other y's and 4" pipes with gates and flex lines to other machines. Let me know if you need more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Theory on grounding the ducts runs that you need to run the ground wire both inside and outside of PVC, "jumping" over segments like blast gates. With the sheet metal, you just need to run a small wire from one metal segment to another past the plastic (or wood) blast gates. It's a lot like wiring a model train; set it up in blocks, each with an independent power and ground line, and make sure nothing crosses the power zones to short out or "ground out" the tools. However, I believe Mythbusters proved that PVC was a poor conductor of static electricity, so I don't think the PVC needs to be grounded. (perhaps this is a myth someone needs to send to them?) No offense to Bill's site, but I went through a couple of books as well as his site when working out the theory on my DC system. (the astute will notice I still don't have a system installed, but I have lots of pieces parts that might one day be someone else's DC system...) I found the entry-level book "Dust Collection Basics" to be a good place to start. It was under $10, at Woodcraft, when I picked it up a while ago. As for ducting... where do you go for the duct material? My local BORG doesn't stock S&D, and I'm not liking the price of the metal duct there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 As for ducting... where do you go for the duct material? My local BORG doesn't stock S&D, and I'm not liking the price of the metal duct there. I seem to recall someone (Marc?) saying that HVAC ducting is intended to resist internal pressure. When you use it for dust collection it can sometimes collapse due external pressure (internal suction/vacuum). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbmaster11 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 when grounding DC pipes. Where does one connect the wire that is run along the PVC? The end "Ground" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I'd assume that the metal cover of the dust collector motor is grounded, so I'd attach there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 when grounding DC pipes. Where does one connect the wire that is run along the PVC? The end "Ground" It is not necessary to ground PVC. I have been running a PVC DC system for almost 2 years now and I have had no problems. I think that I have gotten shocked twice. And it isnt that bad. No worse than dragging your feet on the carpet. I personally think that there are better places to spend money and time in the shop. Call me the devils advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbmaster11 Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 It is not necessary to ground PVC. I have been running a PVC DC system for almost 2 years now and I have had no problems. I think that I have gotten shocked twice. And it isnt that bad. No worse than dragging your feet on the carpet. I personally think that there are better places to spend money and time in the shop. Call me the devils advocate. Thats what I like to hear, I have some hosing running on the ground until I move in the next couple months and I will put handing DC. But I didn't know how to handle this, now I do!! And I have been shocked with the ones on the ground, like you said, isn't that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 when grounding DC pipes. Where does one connect the wire that is run along the PVC? The end "Ground" I've heard of people grounding the copper wire to the plumbing. I've also heard of people advising against this, as it could send an electric shock through to you the next time you shower. While this might help your shave, I doubt many would appreciate the extra additive in the water. the other option, I believe, is to run the line back to your main power box, and tie it into the ground wire attached to it. Not having personally run any grounding, I can only offer theory or hearsay. Take it for what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 I've heard of people grounding the copper wire to the plumbing. I don't know much about electrical work, but I've always heard that an electrical system should have one and only one ground. Since the dust collector motor is grounded to the ground in the electrical panel, the ducting should also be grounded to the same ground - either grounded to the motor casing (which is grounded to the panel) or grounded directly to the panel. Keep in mind that it's not necessary to ground the PVC, but you may want to, just to avoid irritating shocks. Maybe someone who knows more about electrical work than I do can chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davestanton Posted August 12, 2011 Report Share Posted August 12, 2011 If something is earthed, that is the end of the story. You will not get a zap in the shower. In Australia if an appliance has exposed metal it must have an earth pin. If the appliance is all plastic or non conductive, there is no requirement for an earth pin on the plug/socket. (but appliances are not really likely to have a static build up) If your DC has a metal casing for the fan it must have an earth pin on the plug. The suggestion of connecting the anti static wire to the metal casing of the DC is a sound idea. The risk of a zap to your body is not the issue, it is the risk of a spark inside the lines when they are full of highly flammable dust moving along with a good flow of air. It is that air rushing along inside the plastic duct that creates a static charge that can cause a spark. Remember how to start a fire when camping? small sticks and blow on the little embers to get a flame going....same thing inside your lines if they aren't earthed. You don't earth, you take the risk....not for me, I will earth my system when I build it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim0625 Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 TimV....I'm interested in seeing a video of your layout if you don't mind doing it again. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.