Marc TWW Friday Live's "change my mind" challenge

[Jean [Fr]]

Hi Everyone,

21 hours ago, Llama said:

I'll get called out for being a fan boy about BCTW... but I don't care... 

I bought a 3D printed one to see how good it was and well... it's not great. Aside from the obvious design theft the 3D printed version is simply much bulkier than the original. Perhaps a better 3D printer can make it smaller, but still it doesn't offer the same feel as the original. I think I posted about it here several years ago when they came out with that knockoff. The printed version is comically large.

Without going to far into investigating everything you posted I suspect many things fall into that category.

The radius things are neat if you need something like that, but they aren't hard to make with scrap MDF. Maybe shop made vs 3D printed is a better analysis on simple parts like this as noted in your diatribe.

Imagine someone saying I bought a drill to see how good it was and well... It's not great. It would be interesting to know which 3D printer you're talking about, and the year too. How many prints did you do in total with it ?

I would say the same to Chestnut about design theft, is this a fair argument ? Many people do tools copy out of wood, and nobody is yelling for thievery. There's several designs for the same purpose. You should be aware you can't get a genuine Kerfmaker in Europe. On the other hand, the printed version is a fraction of the price and works perfectly, so...

As you can see, it's not exactly the same operation than the genuine Kerfmaker. Too small to embed the Allen key, so I put some magnets. These are for giveaways to friends. I did not show them because I did not released it on Thingiverse, and I'm not here to promote my designs, I've got a day job all I do is free and copyleft, so...

You say the cam clamps are easy to make from MDF. Are you talking about any design theft ? Figuring out the right gap, the right angles and the right offset will take you a bit of time and several prototypes for sure. MDF will explode under pressure. Aluminum will jam quickly because of higher friction... Maybe you can try out of hardwood, but the 3 sides holder will have some trouble with a probable split point along the grain. I'm afraid the printed tool is the best option here : low friction cam, you download it and you print perfect fit clamps. Download and slicing time = maybe a minute ? Time and price is pretty hard to beat.

21 hours ago, Llama said:

Without going to far into investigating everything you posted I suspect many things fall into that category.

Come on, this is pure supposition. I suspect... you're not totally objective

21 hours ago, Chestnut said:

I think a 3d printer has a lot of capabilities for shop stuff, though I'm not sure that i like leaning heavily on stolen ideas. It to a point is defeating the point of a patent. As pointed out previously some of the specialized tools do represent a bargain especially when you consider the intellectual property that the tool represents.

Well, that's a point of view. I'm a huge fan of open source and copyleft, which free people to start from a design or a technology and raise it a step further. As example, the Filament 3D printing technology was locked in copyright since the 50s, with few inovations by the way. Nobody could afford a 3D printer during the patent's lifetime. As the patent expires in 2005, the Reprap project opened that technology to the world, with innovations by numbers. Actually, you can get a proper 3D printer for under $200 because of open source hardware. You can have 3D printers in schools! Now Stratasys which owned the patent for 50 years copy some of the Reprap innovations in his printers. Anyone can make his own opinion about what is the better for the community. Remember copying for personal use was always allowed. But open source is much about original designs that are copyleft. Actually you can find anything open source. But you can still pay a company if it's valuable to you.

21 hours ago, Chestnut said:

here are things that i want to make that currently i can't think of a way to make them with standard wood working tools. 3 dimensional molds come to mind for bent lamination. I could certainly eventually get there with my current tools but there are some complex shapes that would be much faster done with a digital method.

You're absolutely right. On the other hand, you're still in hybrid mode as you consider using the digital method for jig or helpers while you could already make the whole part digitally. Now the benefits depends of your own appreciation. Some people will say than a 3D milled part would be a single piece with continuous grain, so better looking than lamination. And others will prefer using less good wood, even if the jig/helpers are wasted materials. There's choice to make on the method, but also during the design time. Digital fabrication force to upstream work.

21 hours ago, Chestnut said:

I do agree that 3D printing has a HUGE advantage of it being an additive process instead of a subtraction process. This allows for more efficient use of materials. In a space where some hardwoods are extremely expensive utilizing a CNC may cost more in material lost to waste than anything else. Also a good point is that you get to set it and come back when it's done. Your time isn't hands on for the duration of the manufacturing process. Though again it shifts time from shop work to screen work.... nothing wrong with that. 

The waste of good wood is a real subject. We all consider the huge amount of chips wasted during planing. Actually I note less waste with full CNC machining: you surface just where it's necessary, and you can machine twisted or bowed boards. Especially when you do 3D milling, as both sides will be machined. 3D printing is different, but you can have some waste too. Especially if your design need support material. Once again, you want to adjust your design to reduce waste. In my workflow, CAD design takes less time than the sketches on paper. I go in front of the computer when most of the project is developed except dimensions. I start from CAD program only when gears or something mechanical is present. I found you save a lot of time thinking about your project several days or week before to lay something on the computer. Surprisingly, my main digital fabrication tool is my sketchbook.

19 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

I'd like to toss a bucket of cold water onto the idea that 3D prints or CNC routing jobs a 'set and forget' operations after the design is finalized. By my estimate, at least 20% of such jobs I have personally witnessed, or seen discussed by other makers on the interwebs, fail before completion. Tangled filiment, clogged nozzles, broken bits, all result in extensive waste and lost time if your don't monitor the job continuously. Murphy's law is fully enforced - if you aren't watching, anything that CAN go wrong probably will.

Counterpoint, if I screw up a cut or break a tool, I can recover right away, because I am never going to be leaving my saw or chisel to work on their own. 

These machine have no brain for sure. You want to use your own. CNC machines needs to be guarded by an operator, just in case. The most important: preventive maintenance is the best you can do for your machines. One quick review per month is worthy. After 15 years of CNC, I can say as long as you treat your machines well, there's not much to fear. You're the main reason of issues. 3D printers are actually safe and pretty reliable. I evaluate my 3D printing farm issues maybe lower than 3%, including my mistakes which represents 60% of the issues. My 3D printers works about 60 hours per week each. You don't take a lot of risks to be away from a 3D printer. Definitely. Early issues are mostly fixed nowadays. Clogged nozzles comes mostly from cheap and dirty filament, which is avoidable. If you left your printer heating the air for hours, the probable clog is your mistake. Tangled filament is also your mistake. There's no way to produce a tangled filament. Broken bits comes from unappropriated feed and speed, once again, the operator's mistake. As you can see, the mistake are mostly done prior to hit the play button.

Most of the time I'm in the shop while the machines work, but doing something else : cleaning, design, assembly or finishing. Only the newbie spend his time the eye screwed to the tool head (which is hypnotic in a way). 

19 hours ago, drzaius said:

CNC, 3D printing. Nothing evil about them. Everybody is free to decide for themselves whether to and how to use them. I don't understand why some people get in such an uproar about it. There's no need to defend the decision to others.

Personally, I just don't think I'd get the satisfaction out of CNC & printed work that I do out of just using tools to work wood.

One thing that really turns me off of 3D printing is how ugly the finished object looks. Even ones that are well done have that weird 'made of glued together noodles' look to some extent. That doesn't matter for utility stuff, but if you want to make something nice...

I respect your point of view. You're right, owning a CNC is a personnal choice. I won't recommend to get one if you're not a hi-tech guy.

About the "ugly noodle look", the best I can do is to show you some examples :

I don't know if this kind of prints matches your personal taste, but maybe we would both agree ugly is not the appropriate word ?
Please note both are rough. The bust just received a layer of primer.

19 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

I've seen some really nice and interesting pieces made as 3D prints. Typically requires several finishing and assembly steps after the print, though.

I would love to use one of those machines that 3D prints (sinters) then machine the result into a precision part.

And I'd really love to see a 3D concrete printer  in action, printing a building.   

 

I recommend the 3D wasp project from Italia : https://www.youtube.com/user/wasprojecteam
Their last project is an adobe bungalow made with the raw materials found on location. Pretty interesting.

There's a lot of interesting comments above. I'll try to reply soon See you then.

 

[wtnhighlander]

@Jean [Fr], the photo of the heroic bust has an odd line running up the side. Is that piece actually the 3D print, or is it a casting made from a mold of a printed original form?

If that is a direct print, you have a machine with finer resolution than any I have seen. Those being hobby machines, of course.

[Llama]

1 hour ago, Jean [Fr] said:

Imagine someone saying I bought a drill to see how good it was and well... It's not great. It would be interesting to know which 3D printer you're talking about, and the year too. How many prints did you do in total with it ?

I bought it off Thingverse. But as stated you have a perfect retreat in saying a better 3D printer makes better things. I'm sure it does. As I stated, I purchased the knockoff for a laugh. And "works perfectly" is surely subjective as you claim to lack the ability to purchase the actual tool.

1 hour ago, Jean [Fr] said:

I would say the same to Chestnut about design theft, is this a fair argument ? Many people do tools copy out of wood, and nobody is yelling for thievery. There's several designs for the same purpose. You should be aware you can't get a genuine Kerfmaker in Europe. On the other hand, the printed version is a fraction of the price and works perfectly, so...

Couple things here to address.

I absolutely do have an issue with the theft of IP. I don't care if the thing is made from plastic or gold.

You can't get one in Europe... I know for a fact that you can. If you haven't put the effort in then you have another loophole for your theft.

1 hour ago, Jean [Fr] said:

Come on, this is pure supposition. I suspect... you're not totally objective

Are any of us?  Really... Taking the tone that you have in this thread shows that you are not willing to have your mind changed on any of this. 

1 hour ago, Jean [Fr] said:

You say the cam clamps are easy to make from MDF. Are you talking about any design theft ? 

I was referring to the radius jig. And for the record, these have been around long before Woodpecker started making them of shiny red aluminum. 

 

[wtnhighlander]

I seem to recall Roy Underhill demonstrating a Shaker version of those cam clamps.

But don't quote me on that.

Just to be clear, I mean no disrespect to @Jean [Fr] with my arguments. But I have no personal desire to spend time learning or using CNC or 3D print technology as part of my woodworking hobby, for all the reasons I stated previously.

[Llama]

13 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

I seem to recall Roy Underhill demonstrating a Shaker version of those cam clamps.

 But don't quote me on that.

Quoted for effect.

I do recall something similar.

[drzaius]

2 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

I don't know if this kind of prints matches your personal taste, but maybe we would both agree ugly is not the appropriate word ?
Please note both are rough. The bust just received a layer of primer.

Those are impressive. My exposure to printed parts is limited to the samples they have on display at places that sell the printers. The really nice printed objects that I've seen were printed by the powder/fuser (or whatever they're called) printers

[Chestnut]

14 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

I would say the same to Chestnut about design theft, is this a fair argument ? Many people do tools copy out of wood, and nobody is yelling for thievery. There's several designs for the same purpose. 

Quite a bit different when i have to figure out how to do it in my shop, vs downloading a design off of a website that is making money off of intellectual property theft. I'd say you have an argument but you don't because it's been well established, with the illegal downloading of movies and music, that If someone hosts it and makes money off it through ads, they are still guilty.

14 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

Well, that's a point of view. I'm a huge fan of open source and copyleft, which free people to start from a design or a technology and raise it a step further.

Open source and copyleft are great if you want to work your entire life and never get a paycheck (I'm exaggerating here). I don't have a problem with that at all and support the open source community as I'm a heavy Linux user. My issue is when you TAKE my design and post it on a platform that makes money giving it away to people. Especially when that VIOLATES my patent/copyright. It's clear that you don't care if people steal your intellectual property but a lot of people do care. Do i like the patent system, no not entirely but i live with it because it's the LAW.

14 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

On the other hand, you're still in hybrid mode as you consider using the digital method for jig or helpers while you could already make the whole part digitally.

Wood waste would be huge and potential for part failure would be high. 3D printing is ugly, no way around that.

 

14 hours ago, Jean [Fr] said:

Actually I note less waste with full CNC machining: you surface just where it's necessary, and you can machine twisted or bowed boards.

You weren't woodworking in an efficient manner then. My Waste per board is very low. Board selection and part layout is critical. I cut the part out before i surface it and have little waste as "The fastest way to joint and flatten a board is with a saw". I use a band saw to cut parts where my kerf is 1/32" I don't recall ever seeing a router bit that small that can handle cnc machining. If i have to do all the perp work to get the board on the CNC i might as well just finish it with regular tools faster.

[chashint]

Meh.... everyone should just invest their time / money into the tools / technology they want to use and enjoy the fruits of their labors.  

[krtwood]

I'm going to avoid the cnc topic as that's something that's been talked about many times.  As far as 3d printers go, up until very recently I was in the camp that had absolutely no interest.  I couldn't see any need for it and figured they were too slow to bother with.

I like to do power carving and like the Arbortech Turboplane.  Anyone who has used one of these things knows they make an awful mess if you use them indoors.  Arbortech is supposed to be coming out with dust collection for it, but they've opted to make their own grinder and the dust collection attachment only fits that grinder and you have to buy the whole kit.  It's not going to be available in the US until sometime next year, which means at least part of the winter with weather that prevents doing anything outside.  There's no official US pricing, but based on what I've seen in other countries it's going to be $250.  I already have a nice Metabo grinder to use with it that I really like.

So I did the math and decided that a $180 3d printer would pay for itself just by making a dust collection attachment for the grinder I already have.  Plus I get a new tool in bargain.  So for the past week I've been playing around with designing this attachment starting from getting a ring to fit the keyed slots in the mount for the guard on the grinder on up to a functioning item.  The CAD part of it was frustrating at first, as I was dealing with trying to do things I've never done before in a program I'm not familiar with.  But I enjoy the problem solving side of things.  Getting to try something out and then be able to remake the whole part just by tweaking the design and hitting a button is really nice.  I'm willing to try things out where I would have long since run out of time and patience with the whole thing if I had to fabricate it myself.  At this point I have something that kinda works but I think it could be much better.  I'm at a back to the drawing board point to try something completely different and that would never happen without the 3d printer to do all the actual fabricating.  It does take a very long time to print the whole attachment, around 18 hours.  But to be able to tweak the design in an hour or so and then press a button and the next day I just have the thing ready to try out is very nice.

Making this thing isn't my goal.  The goal is to use it to do the thing I actually want to do more easily.  I have a cnc machine, but I don't use it to replace my power carving.  The 3d printer isn't going to replace making anything out of wood.  The computerized stuff just does some of things I don't want to do or am not able to do.

Oh and as far as Marc goes, he already has 3d models of the furniture he makes.  He could use a 3d printer to make dollhouse sized version of the things he builds for Ava with next to zero effort.